1 00:00:13,230 --> 00:00:21,410 [Music] 2 00:00:29,860 --> 00:00:23,240 that of course is Kenny from South Park 3 00:00:36,160 --> 00:00:32,350 did you hear the news a wall just broke 4 00:00:44,260 --> 00:00:36,170 out up on it Saddam Hussein my new 5 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:44,270 partner in the playfulness that South 6 00:00:50,590 --> 00:00:46,370 Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone 7 00:00:53,740 --> 00:00:50,600 show in dealing with hell is truly 8 00:00:56,830 --> 00:00:53,750 masterful and it has a direct link to 9 00:00:59,470 --> 00:00:56,840 today's show because as you know beyond 10 00:01:00,910 --> 00:00:59,480 the love and light aspect of the 11 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:00,920 near-death experience which is 12 00:01:06,340 --> 00:01:03,530 overwhelmingly the most significantly 13 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:06,350 reported experience I mean like 80 90 % 14 00:01:12,660 --> 00:01:08,810 of people report that there are reports 15 00:01:16,300 --> 00:01:12,670 of hellish NDE experiences and they are 16 00:01:18,370 --> 00:01:16,310 significantly underreported they're 17 00:01:20,109 --> 00:01:18,380 under reported by experiencers who are 18 00:01:23,020 --> 00:01:20,119 undoubtedly afraid of facing the 19 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:23,030 ridicule in judgment that comes with 20 00:01:28,389 --> 00:01:26,690 saying yeah I was in hell and people are 21 00:01:30,190 --> 00:01:28,399 thinking yeah why were you in hell what 22 00:01:32,710 --> 00:01:30,200 have you done wrong that I don't know 23 00:01:35,290 --> 00:01:32,720 about but they're also under reported by 24 00:01:37,719 --> 00:01:35,300 NDE researchers and this has an 25 00:01:39,730 --> 00:01:37,729 interesting twist to it because it says 26 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:39,740 that the data that we're getting back 27 00:01:43,690 --> 00:01:41,810 that we're trying to rely on we're 28 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:43,700 trying to make all these interesting 29 00:01:49,540 --> 00:01:47,090 assumptions about extended realms that 30 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:49,550 that is subject to the same kind of 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:52,490 personal human factors that we see in 32 00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:54,410 every other branch of science so if 33 00:01:59,919 --> 00:01:57,410 you're an NDE researcher do you really 34 00:02:01,480 --> 00:01:59,929 want to report the hell thing what do 35 00:02:04,359 --> 00:02:01,490 you do with that what do you do with the 36 00:02:06,850 --> 00:02:04,369 often very Christian biblical baggage 37 00:02:08,980 --> 00:02:06,860 that comes along with that do you as 38 00:02:10,570 --> 00:02:08,990 some do kind of immediately distance 39 00:02:11,830 --> 00:02:10,580 yourself from that oh that can't be real 40 00:02:13,750 --> 00:02:11,840 in the way that you're thinking about it 41 00:02:16,420 --> 00:02:13,760 it has this cultural overlay to it mean 42 00:02:18,910 --> 00:02:16,430 do we really know that can we really 43 00:02:21,910 --> 00:02:18,920 make those kind of assumptions and what 44 00:02:24,210 --> 00:02:21,920 is the endgame for making those kind of 45 00:02:27,910 --> 00:02:24,220 assumptions about a consciousness that 46 00:02:29,949 --> 00:02:27,920 extends into and interferes and corrupts 47 00:02:32,110 --> 00:02:29,959 with the data in the extended 48 00:02:34,479 --> 00:02:32,120 consciousness realm if you know what I 49 00:02:36,610 --> 00:02:34,489 mean well these are some of the issues 50 00:02:40,449 --> 00:02:36,620 that we get into on today's show with 51 00:02:43,730 --> 00:02:40,459 the very excellent Davidson fellow in 52 00:02:45,130 --> 00:02:43,740 this game of trying to figure out 53 00:02:47,780 --> 00:02:45,140 from the wrong end of the telescope 54 00:02:49,790 --> 00:02:47,790 what's really going on in this extended 55 00:02:51,410 --> 00:02:49,800 consciousness realm if we're gonna play 56 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:51,420 the game if we're gonna follow the data 57 00:02:55,430 --> 00:02:52,770 this isn't the data 58 00:02:56,930 --> 00:02:55,440 Jeffrey long his research very much 59 00:02:59,180 --> 00:02:56,940 supports the idea that there are these 60 00:03:01,100 --> 00:02:59,190 hellish realms he in fact here's a quote 61 00:03:02,540 --> 00:03:01,110 from him that says quote the most 62 00:03:04,730 --> 00:03:02,550 frightening things that I've encountered 63 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:04,740 in my life are not from fictional books 64 00:03:10,010 --> 00:03:07,170 or scary movies but from near-death 65 00:03:12,110 --> 00:03:10,020 experiences with hellish content so he's 66 00:03:14,690 --> 00:03:12,120 not saying there's no hell he's just 67 00:03:16,940 --> 00:03:14,700 saying that you know God is not sending 68 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:16,950 people to hell which is a common theme 69 00:03:21,500 --> 00:03:19,770 among near-death experiences as a whole 70 00:03:24,590 --> 00:03:21,510 I think they're saying something else 71 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:24,600 the way I read this data is there are a 72 00:03:30,110 --> 00:03:27,090 lot of scary movies out there and you 73 00:03:33,430 --> 00:03:30,120 may have to watch a scary movie that may 74 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:33,440 be on your path to help your overall 75 00:03:38,510 --> 00:03:36,450 learning and guiding of your soul to 76 00:03:40,910 --> 00:03:38,520 where it needs to be but don't take the 77 00:03:43,820 --> 00:03:40,920 scary movie too seriously that's 78 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:43,830 what the data comes through over and 79 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:45,210 over again and says and that's why I 80 00:03:48,770 --> 00:03:46,710 guess what I'm saying about Jeff long is 81 00:03:52,370 --> 00:03:48,780 yeah you what you said is technically 82 00:03:54,890 --> 00:03:52,380 true but his overall conclusion is it's 83 00:03:58,910 --> 00:03:54,900 not anything to be feared it's part of 84 00:04:00,620 --> 00:03:58,920 your souls experience it's a small movie 85 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:00,630 that you will walk into and walk out of 86 00:04:08,990 --> 00:04:05,490 this is a deep dive into NDE research in 87 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:09,000 how we might use it to better understand 88 00:04:14,090 --> 00:04:11,250 who are we why are we here and how we 89 00:04:16,820 --> 00:04:14,100 should make decisions around those 90 00:04:19,430 --> 00:04:16,830 questions David is a terrific guest 91 00:04:22,610 --> 00:04:19,440 who's decades of work in this field 92 00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:22,620 gives him a unique vantage point to 93 00:04:30,530 --> 00:04:26,940 reveal the big picture takeaways from 94 00:04:32,410 --> 00:04:30,540 these experiences my nice one time asked 95 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:32,420 me what is it about near-death 96 00:04:35,900 --> 00:04:34,530 experiences that you've learned 97 00:04:38,510 --> 00:04:35,910 something new I mean did you already 98 00:04:39,740 --> 00:04:38,520 know this stuff and my answer was I 99 00:04:41,210 --> 00:04:39,750 learned two things from near-death 100 00:04:44,210 --> 00:04:41,220 experiences that I didn't learn from the 101 00:04:45,980 --> 00:04:44,220 other things the first thing was a full 102 00:04:49,490 --> 00:04:45,990 picture how all the pieces fit together 103 00:04:51,890 --> 00:04:49,500 and the second thing was the emphasis 104 00:04:54,980 --> 00:04:51,900 that near-death experiences give to 105 00:04:57,770 --> 00:04:54,990 certain aspects of our life and the main 106 00:04:59,750 --> 00:04:57,780 thing that leaps to mind is the idea 107 00:05:02,390 --> 00:04:59,760 the little things in life are the big 108 00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:02,400 things stick around my conversation with 109 00:05:12,140 --> 00:05:05,520 David son fellow is coming up next on 110 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:14,529 [Music] 111 00:05:19,909 --> 00:05:17,370 today we welcome David son fellow to 112 00:05:22,790 --> 00:05:19,919 skeptic Oh he's here to talk about his 113 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:22,800 new book the purpose of life as revealed 114 00:05:29,089 --> 00:05:25,650 by near-death experiences from around 115 00:05:31,430 --> 00:05:29,099 the world and really to talk about a lot 116 00:05:33,020 --> 00:05:31,440 more I've had a great email exchange 117 00:05:34,999 --> 00:05:33,030 with David and I was just chatting one 118 00:05:37,010 --> 00:05:35,009 second ago when I first got him on the 119 00:05:38,570 --> 00:05:37,020 Zen caster here and we had a chance to 120 00:05:40,249 --> 00:05:38,580 talk to each other for the first time 121 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:40,259 and I feel like a certain connection 122 00:05:45,529 --> 00:05:43,050 with someone who's really devoted 123 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:45,539 themselves to trying to understand more 124 00:05:50,390 --> 00:05:48,090 broadly these big picture questions who 125 00:05:52,909 --> 00:05:50,400 are we why are we here where are we 126 00:05:55,010 --> 00:05:52,919 headed and David has done that in just 127 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:55,020 an amazing way he's compiled thousands 128 00:06:00,290 --> 00:05:57,090 of near-death experience accounts both 129 00:06:03,290 --> 00:06:00,300 written and video he's put together a 130 00:06:05,959 --> 00:06:03,300 very popular website that is a real 131 00:06:07,399 --> 00:06:05,969 go-to for a lot of people within the 132 00:06:09,770 --> 00:06:07,409 near-death experience community 133 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:09,780 near-death experience researchers know 134 00:06:16,490 --> 00:06:12,810 him well and he really tackles things 135 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:16,500 that are sometimes outside of where a 136 00:06:21,559 --> 00:06:18,810 lot of people want to go in terms of the 137 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:21,569 natural controversies that arise when 138 00:06:27,469 --> 00:06:25,050 you look at these extended consciousness 139 00:06:29,659 --> 00:06:27,479 things so with all that David it's 140 00:06:31,730 --> 00:06:29,669 certainly great great great to have you 141 00:06:33,649 --> 00:06:31,740 on skeptic oh thanks for being here hey 142 00:06:35,990 --> 00:06:33,659 it's great to be here - Alex thanks for 143 00:06:39,050 --> 00:06:36,000 inviting me so let's see you know as 144 00:06:40,010 --> 00:06:39,060 much as I sketched out a very brief bio 145 00:06:45,019 --> 00:06:40,020 of you 146 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:45,029 it is very brief so who is David son 147 00:06:51,620 --> 00:06:48,210 fellow yeah that's that's a big question 148 00:06:54,499 --> 00:06:51,630 I guess I would boil it down by saying 149 00:06:58,760 --> 00:06:54,509 that I'm I'm just someone who has spent 150 00:07:00,320 --> 00:06:58,770 my life trying to understand the big 151 00:07:03,010 --> 00:07:00,330 questions you know why are we here 152 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:03,020 what's life all about where is it going 153 00:07:09,230 --> 00:07:07,110 and that's been my main focus you know 154 00:07:11,420 --> 00:07:09,240 along with raising four children and 155 00:07:13,100 --> 00:07:11,430 doing a bunch of other things but the 156 00:07:15,019 --> 00:07:13,110 main thrust of my life has been to try 157 00:07:17,809 --> 00:07:15,029 to answer these big fundamental 158 00:07:19,790 --> 00:07:17,819 questions why do you suppose that is I 159 00:07:22,010 --> 00:07:19,800 mean I'll frame it up a little bit 160 00:07:24,469 --> 00:07:22,020 because I've told this story on the show 161 00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:24,479 you know I grew up and I was pretty 162 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:27,110 successful rented and that's how my 163 00:07:31,270 --> 00:07:29,210 family kind of raised me and I think 164 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:31,280 there was a good thing about that I was 165 00:07:37,630 --> 00:07:34,730 after the normal things that our society 166 00:07:40,090 --> 00:07:37,640 says but I always had in the back of my 167 00:07:41,470 --> 00:07:40,100 mind that I needed to get past that so I 168 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:41,480 could get to these bigger picture 169 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:44,690 questions so that's what I did and I 170 00:07:49,930 --> 00:07:46,730 expected to find a lot of other 171 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:49,940 travelers on that road people who had 172 00:07:54,790 --> 00:07:52,610 said okay I'm gonna tackle life but I'm 173 00:07:57,220 --> 00:07:54,800 also gonna tackle what are obviously 174 00:07:59,410 --> 00:07:57,230 these fundamental questions in life and 175 00:08:02,290 --> 00:07:59,420 I found that you know a lot of people 176 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:02,300 just aren't interested Yeah right or 177 00:08:08,260 --> 00:08:04,450 they're it in a very narrowly defined 178 00:08:11,350 --> 00:08:08,270 way that you know is like okay Church 179 00:08:14,740 --> 00:08:11,360 tells me that's how it is except which 180 00:08:17,110 --> 00:08:14,750 to me is again not I mean we even people 181 00:08:18,340 --> 00:08:17,120 who are religious and your religious 182 00:08:20,260 --> 00:08:18,350 we're gonna talk about that for a minute 183 00:08:22,630 --> 00:08:20,270 we'll talk about what that means for you 184 00:08:25,090 --> 00:08:22,640 but for a lot of us there's a deeper 185 00:08:27,370 --> 00:08:25,100 Drive like hey is that really all the 186 00:08:30,190 --> 00:08:27,380 answers and I think you have that drive 187 00:08:33,310 --> 00:08:30,200 to what do you think that's about well 188 00:08:36,310 --> 00:08:33,320 for me the way to frame it would be I 189 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:36,320 went through a brutal childhood and I 190 00:08:41,890 --> 00:08:39,170 basically crawled out of that wondering 191 00:08:43,420 --> 00:08:41,900 you know what happened why did it happen 192 00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:43,430 how can I put Humpty Dumpty back 193 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:46,310 together again and so that it really was 194 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:48,290 the foundation that started everything I 195 00:08:53,830 --> 00:08:51,050 didn't enter the world with any 196 00:08:55,690 --> 00:08:53,840 resources or wealth or anything like 197 00:08:59,950 --> 00:08:55,700 that from my family's perspective of 198 00:09:02,020 --> 00:08:59,960 this all bottom line you know just 199 00:09:04,780 --> 00:09:02,030 struggling to survive so I crawled out 200 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:04,790 of my childhood with a lot of wounds and 201 00:09:10,330 --> 00:09:07,970 a desire to understand what this is all 202 00:09:11,860 --> 00:09:10,340 about and that eventually led me to 203 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:11,870 Virginia Beach Virginia in the work of 204 00:09:17,110 --> 00:09:14,930 Edgar Cayce and then I went through a 205 00:09:18,490 --> 00:09:17,120 period of about five and a half years a 206 00:09:22,210 --> 00:09:18,500 dark night of the soul type of 207 00:09:24,130 --> 00:09:22,220 experience that took me down the rabbit 208 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:24,140 hole to all these other deeper places 209 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:29,050 and that officially launched me into 210 00:09:35,470 --> 00:09:32,810 getting really really serious for my own 211 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:35,480 personal reasons of needing to 212 00:09:40,930 --> 00:09:38,210 understand what is this all about and 213 00:09:44,230 --> 00:09:40,940 how can we learn to live 214 00:09:47,110 --> 00:09:44,240 healthy happy productive lives in this 215 00:09:50,079 --> 00:09:47,120 world so that's my little bit mark on my 216 00:09:53,590 --> 00:09:50,089 background interesting what do you think 217 00:09:56,410 --> 00:09:53,600 about the Edgar Cayce material it always 218 00:09:58,420 --> 00:09:56,420 has intrigued me what was it that drew 219 00:10:02,199 --> 00:09:58,430 you to that and what did you feel like 220 00:10:04,570 --> 00:10:02,209 you came out of it at the end yeah well 221 00:10:08,170 --> 00:10:04,580 when I first encountered the case of 222 00:10:10,060 --> 00:10:08,180 material on though I was looking for an 223 00:10:11,710 --> 00:10:10,070 inverse and why don't we tell folks 224 00:10:13,810 --> 00:10:11,720 really briefly just in case they don't 225 00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:13,820 because it's a little bit dated now no 226 00:10:17,530 --> 00:10:15,230 one talks about it although it's still 227 00:10:21,930 --> 00:10:17,540 an amazing body of work out what's that 228 00:10:24,519 --> 00:10:21,940 all about well Edgar Cayce was a man who 229 00:10:26,949 --> 00:10:24,529 through a series of events he actually 230 00:10:30,340 --> 00:10:26,959 had a health crisis he was hypnotized 231 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:30,350 during the hypnosis he couldn't speak at 232 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:32,330 the time but he was hypnotized and then 233 00:10:37,150 --> 00:10:33,890 when he was hypnotized he got his voice 234 00:10:38,860 --> 00:10:37,160 back he was able to tell the hypnotist 235 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:38,870 exactly what was wrong with this body 236 00:10:43,329 --> 00:10:40,610 and what needed to be done to correct it 237 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:43,339 that started the process with Casey and 238 00:10:47,590 --> 00:10:45,410 he eventually became what's called a 239 00:10:50,019 --> 00:10:47,600 trance psychic he would go into these 240 00:10:53,050 --> 00:10:50,029 trans states and then over the course of 241 00:10:56,380 --> 00:10:53,060 this lifetime gave what is called 242 00:10:58,750 --> 00:10:56,390 readings 14,000 of these readings that 243 00:11:01,570 --> 00:10:58,760 dealt with all kinds of topics including 244 00:11:04,690 --> 00:11:01,580 big picture topics about purpose of life 245 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:04,700 but he what he became famous for were 246 00:11:08,949 --> 00:11:07,130 his health readings and he had the 247 00:11:11,710 --> 00:11:08,959 ability to basically when he was in 248 00:11:14,110 --> 00:11:11,720 trance to go into a person's body and 249 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:14,120 diagnose everything that was wrong and 250 00:11:16,780 --> 00:11:16,130 what needed to be done to correct the 251 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:16,790 problems 252 00:11:22,900 --> 00:11:19,610 and he had a lot of miraculous healings 253 00:11:24,610 --> 00:11:22,910 result from the diagnoses that were 254 00:11:26,500 --> 00:11:24,620 given from the readings and then he 255 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:26,510 himself would not remember anything but 256 00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:28,370 he woke up about what was set during the 257 00:11:35,940 --> 00:11:32,510 trance time so I came across his work 258 00:11:37,930 --> 00:11:35,950 and began studying the readings and 259 00:11:39,970 --> 00:11:37,940 eventually ended up in Virginia Beach 260 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:39,980 Virginia which is where his work is 261 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:44,570 located and was there for 16 years so in 262 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:46,250 Virginia Beach and I've never been in 263 00:11:51,610 --> 00:11:49,490 been to the Association actually 264 00:11:55,060 --> 00:11:51,620 research online manana 265 00:11:56,710 --> 00:11:55,070 the organization okay awesome so I want 266 00:11:58,630 --> 00:11:56,720 you to tell us a little bit about what 267 00:12:00,460 --> 00:11:58,640 that was like and what it was like to 268 00:12:02,980 --> 00:12:00,470 stay there in study and I know many 269 00:12:04,930 --> 00:12:02,990 people have had amazing experiences just 270 00:12:06,700 --> 00:12:04,940 being there but I also want to just fill 271 00:12:08,410 --> 00:12:06,710 in a couple of the details that I know 272 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:08,420 and you can elaborate on these are 273 00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:11,210 correct me wrong yeah one of the amazing 274 00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:13,279 things is when you say he's doing these 275 00:12:17,740 --> 00:12:15,529 readings these are a lot of times out of 276 00:12:20,230 --> 00:12:17,750 letters I mean this is kind of back a 277 00:12:22,030 --> 00:12:20,240 day you know and people would just write 278 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:22,040 in these letters and he would go into 279 00:12:26,019 --> 00:12:24,650 trance and the kind of medical readings 280 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:26,029 that he would give give people an 281 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:27,770 example David but he would do really 282 00:12:32,290 --> 00:12:30,650 really specific things not like kind of 283 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:32,300 general things he'd say you know take 284 00:12:36,430 --> 00:12:34,010 this particular route that you'll find 285 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:36,440 in your back way except with this and 286 00:12:40,930 --> 00:12:39,410 then you healed over seven days you know 287 00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:40,940 it's like you can't really make that 288 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:44,620 stuff up right right and in the a re the 289 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:46,370 Association for research and 290 00:12:50,890 --> 00:12:48,110 enlightenment which is the organization 291 00:12:53,019 --> 00:12:50,900 that archives his work and has a library 292 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:53,029 and they do regular conferences they 293 00:12:57,460 --> 00:12:55,490 have all these readings on file where 294 00:12:59,710 --> 00:12:57,470 anybody can go in and study them 295 00:13:01,000 --> 00:12:59,720 including case histories that tell 296 00:13:04,300 --> 00:13:01,010 exactly the kind of stories you just 297 00:13:07,060 --> 00:13:04,310 mentioned and some of these are off the 298 00:13:10,210 --> 00:13:07,070 top you know wild stories for example 299 00:13:11,860 --> 00:13:10,220 there's one where he did a reading about 300 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:11,870 I can't remember what the particular 301 00:13:18,250 --> 00:13:14,810 problem was but part of the diagnosis 302 00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:18,260 was finding this obscure herbal remedy 303 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:20,870 in this drugstore in some distant City 304 00:13:25,329 --> 00:13:22,610 and this was a person that had written 305 00:13:28,210 --> 00:13:25,339 into him and so he told them where to go 306 00:13:29,650 --> 00:13:28,220 find it the pharmacist couldn't find it 307 00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:29,660 so they did another reading then he said 308 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:31,190 okay go back in this room it's on the 309 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:33,890 third shelf in the back and that was the 310 00:13:38,170 --> 00:13:36,170 kind of stuff that he did it was you 311 00:13:40,930 --> 00:13:38,180 know just story after story after story 312 00:13:42,910 --> 00:13:40,940 you know and I want to put a pin in this 313 00:13:45,430 --> 00:13:42,920 because I don't want to pull it into the 314 00:13:47,230 --> 00:13:45,440 interview right now but one of the 315 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:47,240 things that I really appreciated about 316 00:13:53,769 --> 00:13:50,450 the email dialogue we've had is that 317 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:53,779 like take this edgar cayce story right 318 00:13:59,640 --> 00:13:57,290 there it already starts to introduce 319 00:14:02,199 --> 00:13:59,650 some of the complexity the 320 00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:02,209 contradictions the impossible to resolve 321 00:14:07,570 --> 00:14:04,880 you know how does this 322 00:14:09,730 --> 00:14:07,580 extended consciousness thing work and 323 00:14:13,390 --> 00:14:09,740 what does it mean to transcend space and 324 00:14:16,630 --> 00:14:13,400 time and is destiny really destiny and 325 00:14:18,730 --> 00:14:16,640 all these complicated questions so like 326 00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:18,740 I said I want to just kind of set those 327 00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:21,920 up in the background right but maybe in 328 00:14:28,810 --> 00:14:25,040 your story tell us how that rolls into 329 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:28,820 the near-death experience science stuff 330 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:32,650 why you were drawn to it and what that 331 00:14:38,050 --> 00:14:36,050 evolved into for you right okay well 332 00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:38,060 there are two tracks happening there the 333 00:14:44,230 --> 00:14:41,510 first one is just Cayce providing the 334 00:14:46,540 --> 00:14:44,240 basic overview of life there's a lot 335 00:14:49,180 --> 00:14:46,550 more going on to life and we realize 336 00:14:50,890 --> 00:14:49,190 there are spiritual forces at work there 337 00:14:53,500 --> 00:14:50,900 are specific things we can do in our 338 00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:53,510 lives to improve them improve them for 339 00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:55,040 example Cayce recommended prayer 340 00:14:59,350 --> 00:14:56,720 meditation and dreams that's a three 341 00:15:03,220 --> 00:14:59,360 main tools to use in your life so Casey 342 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:03,230 was providing a big framework about how 343 00:15:07,660 --> 00:15:05,090 to view life in general and how to begin 344 00:15:09,430 --> 00:15:07,670 to move through life so that's the 345 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:09,440 general picture more specifically how 346 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:10,850 near-death experiences came to the 347 00:15:14,380 --> 00:15:12,890 picture for me is while I was at 348 00:15:16,930 --> 00:15:14,390 Virginia Beach Virginia 349 00:15:19,510 --> 00:15:16,940 studying Casey's work participating in 350 00:15:21,700 --> 00:15:19,520 work-study program one of the speaker's 351 00:15:24,550 --> 00:15:21,710 they had was a guy by the name of dr. 352 00:15:27,310 --> 00:15:24,560 George Richie and he came and told his 353 00:15:28,750 --> 00:15:27,320 experiences near-death experience and at 354 00:15:30,190 --> 00:15:28,760 the time it wasn't even called a 355 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:30,200 near-death experience this was alike 356 00:15:38,730 --> 00:15:35,810 about 1974-75 about the time rema movie 357 00:15:41,140 --> 00:15:38,740 was coming out with his book and I 358 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:41,150 didn't know what to make of this it was 359 00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:44,930 this was a professional medical doctor 360 00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:47,360 very well known and respected in his 361 00:15:53,290 --> 00:15:50,480 particular area that was telling about 362 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:53,300 humbly I might add humbly telling about 363 00:15:59,800 --> 00:15:56,210 this life-changing experience that he 364 00:16:02,920 --> 00:15:59,810 had he was he had actually died and had 365 00:16:05,470 --> 00:16:02,930 an encounter with Jesus and told this 366 00:16:07,540 --> 00:16:05,480 fabulous story so that was the first 367 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:07,550 encounter I had with near-death and 368 00:16:12,450 --> 00:16:09,010 you're hearing a near-death experience 369 00:16:16,490 --> 00:16:12,460 turns out that this particular fellow 370 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:16,500 Jorge Ricci was a mental 371 00:16:21,950 --> 00:16:19,530 - Raymond Moody and Raymond moody look 372 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:21,960 like after life after life which of 373 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:24,510 course started the near-death experience 374 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:26,130 movement the modern near-death 375 00:16:32,630 --> 00:16:30,450 experience movement was dedicated to dr. 376 00:16:34,910 --> 00:16:32,640 George Ritchie who introduced him to 377 00:16:38,150 --> 00:16:34,920 near-death experiences so that's my 378 00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:38,160 first connection fantastic so why did it 379 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:40,500 kind of grab you the way that it did and 380 00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:45,330 I had heard anyone have an experience 381 00:16:51,050 --> 00:16:48,990 like his by that time I become familiar 382 00:16:54,170 --> 00:16:51,060 with a lot of mystical experiences with 383 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:54,180 classic descriptions of cosmic 384 00:16:58,940 --> 00:16:55,850 consciousness universal consciousness 385 00:17:02,450 --> 00:16:58,950 consciousness Satori Samadhi things like 386 00:17:05,420 --> 00:17:02,460 that and I had was more of the mindset 387 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:05,430 of you know the purpose of life really 388 00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:08,850 is to basically figure out how to get 389 00:17:16,390 --> 00:17:14,640 out of this world and so here was and in 390 00:17:19,190 --> 00:17:16,400 case you didn't have that perspective 391 00:17:20,780 --> 00:17:19,200 but George Ritchie talking about this 392 00:17:23,360 --> 00:17:20,790 personal experience encountering had 393 00:17:25,070 --> 00:17:23,370 with Jesus and then describing all the 394 00:17:26,750 --> 00:17:25,080 different realms that he visited and 395 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:26,760 what he was shown in these different 396 00:17:33,850 --> 00:17:29,970 places helped begin to give me a sense 397 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:33,860 of what life was really about so that's 398 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:36,570 basically helped begin to change my 399 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:40,170 perspective on why we're here and what 400 00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:42,690 was important so I just want to let 401 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:45,630 folks know you've brought up Jesus a 402 00:17:50,570 --> 00:17:48,330 couple of times and that's going to be a 403 00:17:53,270 --> 00:17:50,580 very interesting topic for us to talk 404 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:53,280 about and I want to get there and I have 405 00:17:56,900 --> 00:17:55,530 a couple of clips queued up that you've 406 00:17:58,910 --> 00:17:56,910 already heard that I think we're gonna 407 00:18:01,490 --> 00:17:58,920 have an interesting conversation about 408 00:18:03,170 --> 00:18:01,500 so great I want people to hold on and 409 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:03,180 listen to that but I don't want people 410 00:18:09,740 --> 00:18:06,810 to be thrown either way by the Jesus 411 00:18:15,350 --> 00:18:09,750 thing because I think you recognize it 412 00:18:18,170 --> 00:18:15,360 as a potential contradiction a stumbling 413 00:18:20,420 --> 00:18:18,180 block but also opportunity and figuring 414 00:18:23,270 --> 00:18:20,430 this out and I want to let people know 415 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:23,280 that you're not married to anyone 416 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:25,530 interpretation and we're going to have 417 00:18:28,610 --> 00:18:26,310 to figure that out 418 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:28,620 as we go but I guess what I wanted to do 419 00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:29,450 is return 420 00:18:33,790 --> 00:18:31,910 to the near-death experience thing 421 00:18:36,070 --> 00:18:33,800 because I'm gonna suggest to you David 422 00:18:39,360 --> 00:18:36,080 that one of the reasons that you were 423 00:18:41,770 --> 00:18:39,370 drawn to the near-death experience is 424 00:18:43,420 --> 00:18:41,780 the same reason I was drawn to it 425 00:18:46,630 --> 00:18:43,430 because I've never had a near-death 426 00:18:48,130 --> 00:18:46,640 experience I don't know anyone who's had 427 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:48,140 a near-death experience and it sounds 428 00:18:52,780 --> 00:18:50,210 like that's similar to your situation 429 00:18:54,250 --> 00:18:52,790 but you heard George Ritchie you hadn't 430 00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:54,260 had heard it did you have any family 431 00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:57,110 members who had told you story like this 432 00:19:02,590 --> 00:19:00,080 no I had no direct contact with anyone 433 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:02,600 at that time who had a near-death 434 00:19:05,860 --> 00:19:04,250 experience and I haven't had one myself 435 00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:05,870 either I went through this spiritually 436 00:19:09,850 --> 00:19:08,210 transformative experience but not the 437 00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:09,860 classic near-death experience and by the 438 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:13,120 way this is an important clarification 439 00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:17,510 in my time with the Cayce material I 440 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:19,190 became in contact with a lot of other 441 00:19:27,430 --> 00:19:24,050 psychic metaphysical type things and so 442 00:19:29,470 --> 00:19:27,440 I recognized in near-death experiences 443 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:29,480 there was something different happening 444 00:19:34,110 --> 00:19:31,970 with those experiences versus your 445 00:19:36,550 --> 00:19:34,120 typical meeting women trans psychic 446 00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:36,560 there's something different the quality 447 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:38,750 of the experiences were different and so 448 00:19:41,410 --> 00:19:40,760 that's another reason that it got my 449 00:19:44,140 --> 00:19:41,420 attention 450 00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:44,150 because I already spent I spent like I 451 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:46,310 said decades in the metaphysical world 452 00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:48,770 and that eventually led me to the 453 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:51,500 near-death experience world which is 454 00:19:56,410 --> 00:19:54,530 what has become in the last you know 455 00:19:58,840 --> 00:19:56,420 well actually the last several decades a 456 00:20:01,150 --> 00:19:58,850 major focus of my life so that is 457 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:01,160 interesting right there and I think it 458 00:20:08,170 --> 00:20:03,890 you put your finger on it I don't know 459 00:20:10,530 --> 00:20:08,180 if that's true for me I'm not totally 460 00:20:13,140 --> 00:20:10,540 certain about the difference between 461 00:20:15,670 --> 00:20:13,150 near-death experiences in other 462 00:20:18,610 --> 00:20:15,680 spiritually transformative experiences 463 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:18,620 but I have to admit acknowledge what 464 00:20:23,650 --> 00:20:21,410 you're saying they do seem to touch us 465 00:20:26,710 --> 00:20:23,660 more directly touch our heart more 466 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:26,720 directly they do me and they do so many 467 00:20:30,580 --> 00:20:28,910 people that I've encountered and I think 468 00:20:32,830 --> 00:20:30,590 that's kind of interesting but I think 469 00:20:35,980 --> 00:20:32,840 the other thing that either consciously 470 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:35,990 or subconsciously near-death experience 471 00:20:42,790 --> 00:20:38,930 taps into for us is because we are in 472 00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:42,800 meshed in this materialistic science as 473 00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:43,320 we know 474 00:20:50,030 --> 00:20:46,910 driven culture it gives us a certain 475 00:20:51,740 --> 00:20:50,040 confidence to kind of leave that aside 476 00:20:54,890 --> 00:20:51,750 and say no wait a minute 477 00:20:58,010 --> 00:20:54,900 you can't get past this this person was 478 00:20:59,660 --> 00:20:58,020 dead their brain was not functioning in 479 00:21:01,970 --> 00:20:59,670 the way that you said brains are 480 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:01,980 supposed to function and they had it I 481 00:21:08,120 --> 00:21:05,310 think for me there's a certain science 482 00:21:12,830 --> 00:21:08,130 II kind of confidence in the near-death 483 00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:12,840 experience science that is satisfying do 484 00:21:17,030 --> 00:21:14,580 you feel any of that I don't want to put 485 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:17,040 words up at all but absolutely I mean 486 00:21:24,020 --> 00:21:20,130 what I would add to that is that for me 487 00:21:25,790 --> 00:21:24,030 you know the idea follow the data the 488 00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:25,800 data when it comes to near-death 489 00:21:31,970 --> 00:21:29,190 experiences is more clear in my view if 490 00:21:35,630 --> 00:21:31,980 you if you gather all the data in the 491 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:35,640 room like from trance psychics or from 492 00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:38,490 mystical experiences or from other kinds 493 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:40,500 of experiences in the same room and 494 00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:41,850 gather those together with near-death 495 00:21:47,630 --> 00:21:44,910 experiences as a whole I think the 496 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:47,640 clarity that comes shines through 497 00:21:53,030 --> 00:21:50,370 near-death experiences is much more 498 00:21:55,010 --> 00:21:53,040 dramatic and not just for the fact that 499 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:55,020 we're talking about people who have died 500 00:22:00,080 --> 00:21:58,050 and left their bodies for the most part 501 00:22:02,390 --> 00:22:00,090 in a near-death experience you're you 502 00:22:04,670 --> 00:22:02,400 know classically talking about someone 503 00:22:07,580 --> 00:22:04,680 has died and left their body which is 504 00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:07,590 different a psychic who is still in 505 00:22:12,470 --> 00:22:09,990 their body directly connected to their 506 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:12,480 physical body their egoic structures 507 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:15,090 personality and so forth but in addition 508 00:22:21,140 --> 00:22:18,450 to that you have remarkable testimonies 509 00:22:23,830 --> 00:22:21,150 of healings you know verifiable healings 510 00:22:26,630 --> 00:22:23,840 have taken place much in a much greater 511 00:22:28,610 --> 00:22:26,640 degree in near-death experiences than 512 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:28,620 these other types of experiences that 513 00:22:32,870 --> 00:22:31,470 work we that people report and I'm not 514 00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:32,880 saying there's no value and all the 515 00:22:37,550 --> 00:22:34,170 other experiences I think they're 516 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:37,560 fantastic personal transformative value 517 00:22:44,060 --> 00:22:39,510 and the other kinds of experiences that 518 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:44,070 human beings have but as a body of work 519 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:46,410 as a whole I think near-death 520 00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:50,130 experiences give us a clearer clearer 521 00:22:54,999 --> 00:22:52,710 insight into the forces that work in 522 00:22:58,669 --> 00:22:55,009 life and we can learn 523 00:23:00,230 --> 00:22:58,679 okay so David you sent me this book the 524 00:23:01,940 --> 00:23:00,240 purpose of life as revealed by 525 00:23:04,940 --> 00:23:01,950 near-death experiences from around the 526 00:23:08,330 --> 00:23:04,950 world and you recommended to me and to 527 00:23:10,940 --> 00:23:08,340 any reader to you know sip and savor it 528 00:23:13,519 --> 00:23:10,950 bit by bit that's kind of what I've done 529 00:23:17,539 --> 00:23:13,529 I kind of read until I cry which might 530 00:23:19,730 --> 00:23:17,549 be about three or four pages because and 531 00:23:22,399 --> 00:23:19,740 I'm not a super crying kind of person 532 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:22,409 but these accounts as anyone knows who 533 00:23:27,499 --> 00:23:24,570 has dipped into him they just touch us 534 00:23:29,659 --> 00:23:27,509 in a way but you've done more than that 535 00:23:32,769 --> 00:23:29,669 with the book as well you've kind of 536 00:23:36,529 --> 00:23:32,779 touched on some other areas and topics 537 00:23:39,409 --> 00:23:36,539 within this near-death experience thing 538 00:23:41,570 --> 00:23:39,419 that need to be talked about well tell 539 00:23:43,879 --> 00:23:41,580 us what you were trying to do with the 540 00:23:49,789 --> 00:23:43,889 book and what people are going to find 541 00:23:51,919 --> 00:23:49,799 when they yeah okay what I was what I'm 542 00:23:55,519 --> 00:23:51,929 trying to do with the book is I spent 543 00:23:58,369 --> 00:23:55,529 the past 45 years looking at all kinds 544 00:24:00,590 --> 00:23:58,379 of experiences and then focusing 545 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:00,600 specifically on near-death experiences 546 00:24:04,999 --> 00:24:03,450 for the reasons I just mentioned so what 547 00:24:08,029 --> 00:24:05,009 I've tried to do with the book is is 548 00:24:10,700 --> 00:24:08,039 collect together the best of the best 549 00:24:13,789 --> 00:24:10,710 stories and quotes I've come across in 550 00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:13,799 this you know search that I've been on 551 00:24:21,470 --> 00:24:17,360 and put them together in one place where 552 00:24:23,149 --> 00:24:21,480 if a person wants to okay look if a 553 00:24:25,399 --> 00:24:23,159 person asks what are near-death 554 00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:25,409 experience is about what are the main 555 00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:27,360 things that they have to teach us and 556 00:24:33,259 --> 00:24:30,240 then with me the main focus beyond that 557 00:24:34,999 --> 00:24:33,269 is practical application what can we 558 00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:35,009 learn from these experiences that we can 559 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:37,529 practically apply to our everyday lives 560 00:24:45,019 --> 00:24:41,610 well here's a book that will help you 561 00:24:48,019 --> 00:24:45,029 understand the power the instructive 562 00:24:51,889 --> 00:24:48,029 clear power that these stories offer us 563 00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:51,899 so that and not just that that's the big 564 00:24:56,269 --> 00:24:54,240 picture what are what are those big what 565 00:24:59,330 --> 00:24:56,279 are those what would you say are two or 566 00:25:01,519 --> 00:24:59,340 three of the big takeaways that you can 567 00:25:04,299 --> 00:25:01,529 say in terms of hey this is how you 568 00:25:07,070 --> 00:25:04,309 should live your life based on this 569 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:07,080 information right well of course the 570 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:11,490 biggest takeaway is love is really what 571 00:25:15,859 --> 00:25:12,090 it's all about 572 00:25:19,190 --> 00:25:15,869 we're here to become more loving and 573 00:25:20,599 --> 00:25:19,200 present with well I guess the main thing 574 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:20,609 I would say that I've learned from their 575 00:25:23,930 --> 00:25:22,049 death experiences and the main thing I'm 576 00:25:27,019 --> 00:25:23,940 trying to communicate with the book is 577 00:25:29,570 --> 00:25:27,029 it it's not just about love generally 578 00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:29,580 it's about love and very specific forms 579 00:25:34,580 --> 00:25:32,340 meaning learning how to love every 580 00:25:37,849 --> 00:25:34,590 single person and thing we encounter in 581 00:25:40,099 --> 00:25:37,859 our life and that includes the people we 582 00:25:42,980 --> 00:25:40,109 encounter on a day-to-day basis the 583 00:25:46,159 --> 00:25:42,990 cashier at the store it includes the 584 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:46,169 plants and animals that we you know are 585 00:25:50,499 --> 00:25:47,970 in relationship with it includes the 586 00:25:53,509 --> 00:25:50,509 environment it includes our bodies 587 00:25:56,419 --> 00:25:53,519 ourselves our minds our emotions it 588 00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:56,429 includes everything that is the main 589 00:26:01,070 --> 00:25:58,799 thrust of what near-death experiences 590 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:01,080 are I believe trying to teach us that 591 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:03,570 life is about love and we're here to 592 00:26:08,599 --> 00:26:06,090 learn how to express love to everyone 593 00:26:10,430 --> 00:26:08,609 and everything including ourselves that 594 00:26:12,739 --> 00:26:10,440 we come in contact with in this 595 00:26:15,649 --> 00:26:12,749 experience but whenever somebody says 596 00:26:18,470 --> 00:26:15,659 something like that it's kind of it 597 00:26:20,779 --> 00:26:18,480 almost sounds trite you know I mean so 598 00:26:23,149 --> 00:26:20,789 compared to what David compared to what 599 00:26:26,090 --> 00:26:23,159 okay love everybody love everything I 600 00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:26,100 love everyone and tell them curly baba I 601 00:26:32,810 --> 00:26:29,279 mean so compared to what who is it 602 00:26:34,609 --> 00:26:32,820 trying to do that it looks then well I I 603 00:26:40,149 --> 00:26:34,619 think probably there's a lot of people 604 00:26:45,710 --> 00:26:43,340 does this give you tangible examples of 605 00:26:47,989 --> 00:26:45,720 what does that mean a practical 606 00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:47,999 application and the book is full of 607 00:26:53,930 --> 00:26:50,940 stories where people are encountering 608 00:26:56,810 --> 00:26:53,940 for example unloving actions what it was 609 00:26:58,970 --> 00:26:56,820 was an unloving action look like one of 610 00:27:01,340 --> 00:26:58,980 the great stories has to do with Kenneth 611 00:27:03,980 --> 00:27:01,350 ring in the book is talking about a 612 00:27:06,980 --> 00:27:03,990 near-death experience or that he knew 613 00:27:09,169 --> 00:27:06,990 where he was living his life review and 614 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:09,179 what had happened in his particular case 615 00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:11,129 as he was driving down the road in the 616 00:27:16,460 --> 00:27:13,740 pickup somebody was walking across the 617 00:27:18,289 --> 00:27:16,470 crosswalk who got in his way interrupted 618 00:27:19,110 --> 00:27:18,299 his day so he stopped this pickup got 619 00:27:21,450 --> 00:27:19,120 out and be 620 00:27:25,050 --> 00:27:21,460 you gotta and then during his life 621 00:27:27,450 --> 00:27:25,060 review he was able to experience that 622 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:27,460 situation from the perspective of the 623 00:27:31,670 --> 00:27:29,500 other person but not just from their 624 00:27:34,230 --> 00:27:31,680 perspective actually in their body 625 00:27:37,230 --> 00:27:34,240 experiencing everything that happened 626 00:27:40,350 --> 00:27:37,240 how many times he was hit how he felt 627 00:27:41,670 --> 00:27:40,360 about this interaction and so the book 628 00:27:45,210 --> 00:27:41,680 is full of stories like this 629 00:27:47,430 --> 00:27:45,220 illustrating what love looks like in 630 00:27:48,390 --> 00:27:47,440 practical application does that answer 631 00:27:51,860 --> 00:27:48,400 your question 632 00:27:54,450 --> 00:27:51,870 it does but we're meandering into the 633 00:27:56,820 --> 00:27:54,460 contradictions right so I love that 634 00:27:59,450 --> 00:27:56,830 story by the way and I think it's it's 635 00:28:02,970 --> 00:27:59,460 gut-wrenching even as you tell it again 636 00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:02,980 it's gut-wrenching to think that I might 637 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:07,360 have to experience everything that I've 638 00:28:13,290 --> 00:28:10,090 done both positive and negative from 639 00:28:14,850 --> 00:28:13,300 another perspective and that I always 640 00:28:17,610 --> 00:28:14,860 thought this was the key thing about the 641 00:28:19,890 --> 00:28:17,620 near-death experience science if you 642 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:19,900 will the compilation of that data it's 643 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:22,210 telling me that I will be the one who 644 00:28:28,110 --> 00:28:24,370 will judge that the memory that I 645 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:28,120 experience on a 24/7 voice inside my 646 00:28:32,970 --> 00:28:30,250 head I'm not going to get away from that 647 00:28:36,630 --> 00:28:32,980 that's going to be the voice that's 648 00:28:38,970 --> 00:28:36,640 going to be the me that is now standing 649 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:38,980 a judgment God isn't going to stand in 650 00:28:43,890 --> 00:28:41,170 judgment Jesus isn't going to stand in 651 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:43,900 judgment Allah Buddha fill in the blank 652 00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:46,090 they're not going to stand in judgment 653 00:28:51,810 --> 00:28:48,910 that voice that's right now inside my 654 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:51,820 head is going to stand not even in 655 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:53,770 judgment just gonna stand there and 656 00:29:00,030 --> 00:28:57,610 observe what that means and what that 657 00:29:02,370 --> 00:29:00,040 could mean in the same way that I could 658 00:29:04,950 --> 00:29:02,380 go learn something now and understand 659 00:29:07,380 --> 00:29:04,960 what it means in my life do you 660 00:29:11,370 --> 00:29:07,390 understand kind of where I'm going with 661 00:29:14,180 --> 00:29:11,380 that yeah right I would say it a little 662 00:29:16,970 --> 00:29:14,190 differently like it's the way that 663 00:29:20,850 --> 00:29:16,980 near-death experiences classically 664 00:29:24,270 --> 00:29:20,860 tackle this is it's not so much an 665 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:24,280 intellectual observation exercise it's 666 00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:26,530 actually you're literally you are the 667 00:29:31,170 --> 00:29:29,470 other person you are the other creatures 668 00:29:32,010 --> 00:29:31,180 you've interacted with and your 669 00:29:33,780 --> 00:29:32,020 experience 670 00:29:36,690 --> 00:29:33,790 seeing how you're treating them from 671 00:29:39,810 --> 00:29:36,700 their perspective as them so it's a 672 00:29:42,150 --> 00:29:39,820 visceral in the body of the other person 673 00:29:44,690 --> 00:29:42,160 experience and that of course is much 674 00:29:48,570 --> 00:29:44,700 more educational than just observing 675 00:29:51,750 --> 00:29:48,580 whatever may be happening so the lesson 676 00:29:56,010 --> 00:29:51,760 from that is number one that we're all 677 00:29:57,870 --> 00:29:56,020 connected in life together and we are we 678 00:30:00,690 --> 00:29:57,880 are responsible for the ways that we're 679 00:30:02,490 --> 00:30:00,700 interacting with each other so much so 680 00:30:04,950 --> 00:30:02,500 that we actually will have the 681 00:30:07,380 --> 00:30:04,960 experience of being the other people in 682 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:07,390 beings or in relationship with and that 683 00:30:12,930 --> 00:30:10,810 kind of segues into another thing on the 684 00:30:16,110 --> 00:30:12,940 broader topic of law what does love look 685 00:30:17,820 --> 00:30:16,120 like in practical application and one of 686 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:17,830 the main things that is very 687 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:19,810 illuminating and surprising from their 688 00:30:23,370 --> 00:30:22,090 death experiences is that they focus on 689 00:30:26,220 --> 00:30:23,380 the little things the little 690 00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:26,230 interactions the little words we say the 691 00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:28,000 little things we forget an overlooked 692 00:30:35,330 --> 00:30:32,250 having profoundly significant impact on 693 00:30:38,370 --> 00:30:35,340 the life that we're interacting with so 694 00:30:41,670 --> 00:30:38,380 that's a calling for us not just to be 695 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:41,680 sloppy with okay I'll just be a loving 696 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:43,450 person generally but that we actually 697 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:46,330 have to up the ante to where we're 698 00:30:51,420 --> 00:30:48,490 becoming more conscious of every 699 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:51,430 interaction we're having is having an 700 00:30:56,730 --> 00:30:53,610 effect upon the rest of the universe and 701 00:30:59,160 --> 00:30:56,740 often it's the smallest things that we 702 00:31:03,120 --> 00:30:59,170 do in the course of a conversation just 703 00:31:06,030 --> 00:31:03,130 saying some kind or mean remark that 704 00:31:09,780 --> 00:31:06,040 ends up turning out to be this hugely 705 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:09,790 impactful thing so that kind of throws 706 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:12,370 the whole loving others into like a 707 00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:15,010 whole new perspective at least for me is 708 00:31:20,750 --> 00:31:18,310 like wow I didn't realize that my 709 00:31:23,820 --> 00:31:20,760 thoughts and actions hat were that 710 00:31:26,190 --> 00:31:23,830 significant especially the seemingly 711 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:26,200 small and insignificant ones you know 712 00:31:30,630 --> 00:31:27,970 I'm gonna put a pin in this as well 713 00:31:33,660 --> 00:31:30,640 because whenever one someone starts 714 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:33,670 going down the path of up the ante in 715 00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:37,210 terms of what I have to do that seems to 716 00:31:42,870 --> 00:31:40,240 stand completely at odds with what I'm 717 00:31:45,180 --> 00:31:42,880 the overall message that I'm taking away 718 00:31:46,620 --> 00:31:45,190 from all this which we can have a good 719 00:31:49,530 --> 00:31:46,630 discussion about a healthy discussion 720 00:31:52,110 --> 00:31:49,540 about I don't have to do anything you 721 00:31:55,740 --> 00:31:52,120 know I don't think God is standing in 722 00:31:59,160 --> 00:31:55,750 judgment of me and is demanding that I 723 00:32:01,950 --> 00:31:59,170 do anything and I think that's a huge 724 00:32:04,830 --> 00:32:01,960 shift that I would avoid making because 725 00:32:08,550 --> 00:32:04,840 I think it leads us down some paths that 726 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:08,560 we can look at and at least say that 727 00:32:15,830 --> 00:32:12,370 doesn't collectively feel right to the 728 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:15,840 overall mission and so as we talk about 729 00:32:21,540 --> 00:32:18,970 purpose as we talk about meaning as we 730 00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:21,550 talk about takeaway lessons one of the 731 00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:23,590 things that I think is a good way to 732 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:26,710 start is to say what are some ideas that 733 00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:30,850 we can maybe dispel or or say you know 734 00:32:36,150 --> 00:32:33,760 from the little shreds of information 735 00:32:39,210 --> 00:32:36,160 we're getting back from collecting about 736 00:32:41,610 --> 00:32:39,220 this this was what doesn't seem to be 737 00:32:45,330 --> 00:32:41,620 well supported in the data so I'm gonna 738 00:32:48,750 --> 00:32:45,340 stick a pin in the you know here's what 739 00:32:50,730 --> 00:32:48,760 you should do up the ante and and switch 740 00:32:53,570 --> 00:32:50,740 over to the other side with that and 741 00:32:56,700 --> 00:32:53,580 maybe touch on some points that are 742 00:32:59,040 --> 00:32:56,710 beautifully covered in your excellent 743 00:33:01,440 --> 00:32:59,050 website where you tackle these issues 744 00:33:03,780 --> 00:33:01,450 and you have great titles to them and 745 00:33:06,420 --> 00:33:03,790 I'd start with this one 746 00:33:10,170 --> 00:33:06,430 shifting gears a little bit how to deal 747 00:33:13,740 --> 00:33:10,180 with skeptics and atheists because I 748 00:33:17,070 --> 00:33:13,750 think this is a perfect example of what 749 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:17,080 I'm talking about where the data is our 750 00:33:24,330 --> 00:33:20,770 friend here the data is so stacked on 751 00:33:26,250 --> 00:33:24,340 one side that it really can help us in 752 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:26,260 terms of how we deal with those folks 753 00:33:31,770 --> 00:33:29,050 who just are completely in denial about 754 00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:31,780 this or are firmly attached to the idea 755 00:33:35,910 --> 00:33:34,510 that it it couldn't be true because hey 756 00:33:38,460 --> 00:33:35,920 they understand that there couldn't 757 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:38,470 possibly be a god so tell us about how 758 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:42,210 to deal with skeptics in atheists well 759 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:45,250 that's another big topic I mean I would 760 00:33:50,670 --> 00:33:48,850 start with that I don't see it as my job 761 00:33:54,050 --> 00:33:50,680 at the job of anyone else to necessarily 762 00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:54,060 convert skeptic sorry yes I think that 763 00:33:58,660 --> 00:33:56,320 everyone is on their own journey through 764 00:34:02,490 --> 00:33:58,670 life and you know 765 00:34:07,270 --> 00:34:02,500 it's important to be respectful and 766 00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:07,280 disrespectful of that young on articles 767 00:34:10,870 --> 00:34:09,919 on this and you're very they're 768 00:34:12,580 --> 00:34:10,880 well-written because they're 769 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:12,590 hard-hitting and they get right to the 770 00:34:18,399 --> 00:34:14,570 point of saying here's the data the only 771 00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:18,409 way you can the your position is to step 772 00:34:24,210 --> 00:34:20,960 past all this data well what I'm saying 773 00:34:27,550 --> 00:34:24,220 is that I think our general posture 774 00:34:30,010 --> 00:34:27,560 towards everyone should be one you know 775 00:34:31,450 --> 00:34:30,020 of loving and trying to be understanding 776 00:34:34,389 --> 00:34:31,460 where another person is coming from and 777 00:34:36,250 --> 00:34:34,399 respectful and not being the bull in a 778 00:34:37,870 --> 00:34:36,260 china shop it's like look I'm going to 779 00:34:41,020 --> 00:34:37,880 convert you and tell you this is what 780 00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:41,030 you need to know that said if you have 781 00:34:46,659 --> 00:34:43,250 people that are receptive to wanting to 782 00:34:48,940 --> 00:34:46,669 find out what the data says there the 783 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:48,950 data as you said is overwhelming I mean 784 00:34:53,980 --> 00:34:51,290 there's just no there's no question 785 00:34:56,050 --> 00:34:53,990 anymore about is there life after death 786 00:34:57,820 --> 00:34:56,060 or disk consciousness continue after 787 00:35:00,430 --> 00:34:57,830 death is there more to life than what we 788 00:35:02,530 --> 00:35:00,440 encounter in this material world and 789 00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:02,540 there's a section I have on n/a Chinese 790 00:35:07,660 --> 00:35:05,510 formula website that is full of all 791 00:35:10,690 --> 00:35:07,670 these different resources that tackle 792 00:35:13,330 --> 00:35:10,700 that issue from multiple perspectives so 793 00:35:15,850 --> 00:35:13,340 I I would encourage anyone who wants to 794 00:35:19,780 --> 00:35:15,860 know more about the data and the proof 795 00:35:24,190 --> 00:35:19,790 that exists in support of consciousness 796 00:35:27,250 --> 00:35:24,200 continuing to visit that page and maybe 797 00:35:29,380 --> 00:35:27,260 a link can be included in this video 798 00:35:31,660 --> 00:35:29,390 that folks can go to and take a look at 799 00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:31,670 there's just remarkable overwhelming 800 00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:34,910 evidence it's I don't even even talk 801 00:35:38,770 --> 00:35:36,950 about that anymore because it's it's a 802 00:35:41,730 --> 00:35:38,780 mute point in my mind of what's the 803 00:35:44,230 --> 00:35:41,740 evidence for laughs life after death 804 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:44,240 it's a mute point like here's the data 805 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:46,610 supper one we could take a look at I got 806 00:35:49,090 --> 00:35:48,050 a persist on this a little bit further 807 00:35:50,470 --> 00:35:49,100 because one of the things we talked 808 00:35:52,270 --> 00:35:50,480 about before this was Michael Shermer 809 00:35:53,740 --> 00:35:52,280 and I was telling you hey here's a link 810 00:35:56,500 --> 00:35:53,750 to the interview I just did brother 811 00:35:58,780 --> 00:35:56,510 recently with Shermer and it's one that 812 00:36:00,700 --> 00:35:58,790 I think I've done three with him and I 813 00:36:03,250 --> 00:36:00,710 said he's one of my favorite frenemies 814 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:03,260 because he does have a certain style 815 00:36:08,230 --> 00:36:05,210 about him that makes these kind of 816 00:36:10,930 --> 00:36:08,240 dialogues entertaining and you shot back 817 00:36:12,310 --> 00:36:10,940 and said you know I can't stomach seeing 818 00:36:15,220 --> 00:36:12,320 the guy or list 819 00:36:15,910 --> 00:36:15,230 to the guy and I get that I totally get 820 00:36:18,450 --> 00:36:15,920 that too 821 00:36:22,810 --> 00:36:18,460 I just think we need to be kind of more 822 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:22,820 kind of real about it in terms of why it 823 00:36:28,330 --> 00:36:25,850 pisses us off so much and I can just 824 00:36:32,610 --> 00:36:28,340 start with myself and that's just to say 825 00:36:36,070 --> 00:36:32,620 you know I feel for people who have been 826 00:36:38,230 --> 00:36:36,080 socially engineered mind-controlled into 827 00:36:40,810 --> 00:36:38,240 this biological robot meaningless 828 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:40,820 universe and it gets drummed in 829 00:36:46,210 --> 00:36:43,850 from the time they go to school and it's 830 00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:46,220 drunk in every time they turn on the 831 00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:48,710 mainstream news and you can trace the 832 00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:50,510 history of near-death experience and you 833 00:36:56,580 --> 00:36:52,910 can see every time a significant study 834 00:36:59,020 --> 00:36:56,590 comes out there's this just barrage of 835 00:37:00,490 --> 00:36:59,030 quote/unquote skeptical but it's not 836 00:37:03,010 --> 00:37:00,500 skeptical it's coming from a different 837 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:03,020 place it's coming from don't go there 838 00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:05,930 don't explore what you might really be 839 00:37:11,830 --> 00:37:08,870 kind of thing and Michael Shermer is 840 00:37:15,310 --> 00:37:11,840 either a useful idiot in that process or 841 00:37:18,790 --> 00:37:15,320 is a player in that process so I think 842 00:37:21,820 --> 00:37:18,800 we do need to kind of understand that 843 00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:21,830 and provide somewhat of a counter to 844 00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:24,470 that that goes beyond just of course we 845 00:37:28,870 --> 00:37:27,470 should love everyone and the way I also 846 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:28,880 also look at it as we should be 847 00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:31,130 entertained by everyone Mike remembers 848 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:33,680 entertaining what role he's supposed to 849 00:37:39,550 --> 00:37:36,050 play in this but I he's supposed to play 850 00:37:41,980 --> 00:37:39,560 some role in it sure I agree or that I 851 00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:41,990 guess what I would say about that Alex 852 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:45,710 is what's upsetting about the the 853 00:37:51,850 --> 00:37:49,010 Michael Shermer skeptic person is their 854 00:37:54,370 --> 00:37:51,860 refusal to look at the data I mean I 855 00:37:56,110 --> 00:37:54,380 just think that that's if you're gonna 856 00:37:59,230 --> 00:37:56,120 be in my in my view if you're gonna be a 857 00:38:01,500 --> 00:37:59,240 true skeptic that means you really look 858 00:38:04,210 --> 00:38:01,510 at the data you're looking at the data 859 00:38:05,650 --> 00:38:04,220 where's the evidence to support this or 860 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:05,660 that you actually have to look at the 861 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:07,370 data to make that decision you can't 862 00:38:13,540 --> 00:38:11,510 just say this data is not in my 863 00:38:15,010 --> 00:38:13,550 particular worldview therefore you can't 864 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:15,020 come in the room and we're not going to 865 00:38:19,390 --> 00:38:17,690 consider that or this doesn't make sense 866 00:38:21,010 --> 00:38:19,400 and I really don't want to talk about 867 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:21,020 that you actually have to bring it in 868 00:38:27,210 --> 00:38:22,450 the room and you have to have 869 00:38:29,250 --> 00:38:27,220 if your again being a true skeptic you 870 00:38:31,710 --> 00:38:29,260 have to you have to have answers for why 871 00:38:34,829 --> 00:38:31,720 you have shared death experiences for 872 00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:34,839 example why blind people can see you 873 00:38:39,509 --> 00:38:36,910 know in your death experiences why you 874 00:38:41,940 --> 00:38:39,519 have these miraculous healings why what 875 00:38:45,180 --> 00:38:41,950 is terminal the Siddha T about you have 876 00:38:46,829 --> 00:38:45,190 to have explanations if you're going and 877 00:38:48,329 --> 00:38:46,839 you have to know about the data and 878 00:38:51,150 --> 00:38:48,339 bring it into the room and be able to 879 00:38:54,029 --> 00:38:51,160 discuss it so my issue with a lot of the 880 00:38:56,789 --> 00:38:54,039 skeptics in quotes out there today is 881 00:38:58,289 --> 00:38:56,799 they don't they don't know about the 882 00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:58,299 data and they don't bring in the data 883 00:39:03,630 --> 00:39:00,880 and and and discuss it you know full-on 884 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:03,640 why why do you think that is why does 885 00:39:09,450 --> 00:39:06,970 that exist why is it so prevalent among 886 00:39:12,390 --> 00:39:09,460 a certain group of people well and why 887 00:39:15,269 --> 00:39:12,400 do people fall for it easily my view is 888 00:39:18,180 --> 00:39:15,279 that it's like it's basically people 889 00:39:21,210 --> 00:39:18,190 have their own mindsets in world do you 890 00:39:23,279 --> 00:39:21,220 set in and they have a comfortable life 891 00:39:25,079 --> 00:39:23,289 or more or less comfortable like built 892 00:39:27,059 --> 00:39:25,089 around that and to bring in some of the 893 00:39:29,660 --> 00:39:27,069 the data that I'm talking about would 894 00:39:33,630 --> 00:39:29,670 completely challenge the materialistic 895 00:39:35,579 --> 00:39:33,640 humanistic worldviews and you know like 896 00:39:37,589 --> 00:39:35,589 that's just something most of us are 897 00:39:39,150 --> 00:39:37,599 designed not to do you don't want after 898 00:39:40,980 --> 00:39:39,160 you spend a lifetime building a 899 00:39:43,079 --> 00:39:40,990 worldview that allows you to operate in 900 00:39:44,490 --> 00:39:43,089 the world the last thing you want to do 901 00:39:46,769 --> 00:39:44,500 is let things in the room that's going 902 00:39:48,990 --> 00:39:46,779 to tear that apart so I understand why 903 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:49,000 people are defended about things like 904 00:39:52,529 --> 00:39:50,890 that I can see reflections in my own 905 00:39:55,259 --> 00:39:52,539 life of having done the same thing where 906 00:39:57,269 --> 00:39:55,269 I you know built certain patterns had 907 00:39:59,460 --> 00:39:57,279 certain ideas in my life that I thought 908 00:40:02,400 --> 00:39:59,470 were true I built my life around those 909 00:40:05,099 --> 00:40:02,410 and I was defended against data that 910 00:40:07,740 --> 00:40:05,109 suggested I was wrong about that and in 911 00:40:09,779 --> 00:40:07,750 the end when I did open the door for 912 00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:09,789 that new data to come into the room it 913 00:40:14,099 --> 00:40:12,250 did dismantle a lot of the things that I 914 00:40:17,849 --> 00:40:14,109 thought and I did have to rebuild my 915 00:40:19,289 --> 00:40:17,859 life in a new way so I think that it's 916 00:40:21,539 --> 00:40:19,299 partially that and I think it's also 917 00:40:26,130 --> 00:40:21,549 partly developmental that it takes a 918 00:40:29,309 --> 00:40:26,140 certain kind of flexibility and maturity 919 00:40:32,249 --> 00:40:29,319 to be able to you know enter into 920 00:40:35,039 --> 00:40:32,259 the Wild West of near-death experiences 921 00:40:37,799 --> 00:40:35,049 and you know spirituality there it's 922 00:40:39,870 --> 00:40:37,809 like nada it's not a world like this 923 00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:39,880 material world is it's like there are so 924 00:40:46,289 --> 00:40:43,630 many strange and quantum physics like 925 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:46,299 issues that operate in this world that 926 00:40:50,999 --> 00:40:48,130 it's much easier to stay somewhere else 927 00:40:53,910 --> 00:40:51,009 where everything is so cut and dry and 928 00:40:57,150 --> 00:40:53,920 make sense let's hone in on that for a 929 00:40:59,759 --> 00:40:57,160 minute David specifically what do you 930 00:41:02,279 --> 00:40:59,769 think are some of the challenges to that 931 00:41:03,959 --> 00:41:02,289 paradigm shift because I think what you 932 00:41:06,930 --> 00:41:03,969 described and you described it really 933 00:41:08,549 --> 00:41:06,940 well is something that a lot of folks go 934 00:41:10,709 --> 00:41:08,559 through and I certainly have gone 935 00:41:13,349 --> 00:41:10,719 through it but in talking to people that 936 00:41:15,689 --> 00:41:13,359 have listened to the show so so many 937 00:41:19,049 --> 00:41:15,699 people have gone through it what do you 938 00:41:21,269 --> 00:41:19,059 think we're holding on to with this 939 00:41:23,999 --> 00:41:21,279 belief system that most of us have 940 00:41:26,849 --> 00:41:24,009 ingrained and why are we holding on to 941 00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:26,859 it so firmly because at another level 942 00:41:32,279 --> 00:41:29,529 you know when you look at what the 943 00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:32,289 message is that you're saying is coming 944 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:34,089 through from the near-death experience 945 00:41:40,469 --> 00:41:37,170 science it seemed like a very attractive 946 00:41:43,259 --> 00:41:40,479 alternative what is it that makes that 947 00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:43,269 not seem as attractive to us at that 948 00:41:50,249 --> 00:41:46,089 time why is it such a huge shift for so 949 00:41:51,959 --> 00:41:50,259 many of us well again I think too that 950 00:41:54,420 --> 00:41:51,969 we've created a world that were 951 00:41:56,459 --> 00:41:54,430 comfortable in that our egos are 952 00:41:59,489 --> 00:41:56,469 comfortable and where we can be the gods 953 00:42:02,249 --> 00:41:59,499 of our own worlds the master of our own 954 00:42:03,870 --> 00:42:02,259 worlds and this the things that we learn 955 00:42:06,329 --> 00:42:03,880 from near-death experiences 956 00:42:08,789 --> 00:42:06,339 challenge that whole system it's not 957 00:42:12,930 --> 00:42:08,799 just about us there actually are other 958 00:42:15,930 --> 00:42:12,940 forces at life that are bigger that that 959 00:42:19,859 --> 00:42:15,940 we have to contend with and I'm 960 00:42:21,599 --> 00:42:19,869 wondering what you think after all the 961 00:42:25,949 --> 00:42:21,609 interviews you've done why do you think 962 00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:25,959 people are so stuck or attached to 963 00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:28,089 materialistic world use what's your 964 00:42:33,059 --> 00:42:30,910 opinion on that you deal a lot more with 965 00:42:35,609 --> 00:42:33,069 the scientific minded folks than I do 966 00:42:38,309 --> 00:42:35,619 and I'm wondering what what your answer 967 00:42:40,769 --> 00:42:38,319 is to that question fear you know I 968 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:40,779 think it is exactly what you said I'd 969 00:42:46,829 --> 00:42:43,210 spin it slightly differently 970 00:42:50,069 --> 00:42:46,839 I've constructed a reality that allows 971 00:42:53,730 --> 00:42:50,079 me to avoid the things that I'm afraid 972 00:42:57,900 --> 00:42:53,740 of and allows me to hold on to the 973 00:43:01,079 --> 00:42:57,910 things that make me feel less afraid and 974 00:43:04,109 --> 00:43:01,089 I'm so built around those two not 975 00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:04,119 getting what I don't want and trying to 976 00:43:07,290 --> 00:43:05,200 get what I want 977 00:43:10,319 --> 00:43:07,300 that I just live in constant fear and 978 00:43:12,900 --> 00:43:10,329 any thought of just jumping outside of 979 00:43:15,299 --> 00:43:12,910 that is just really hard hard to get in 980 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:15,309 that space yeah and maybe there's a 981 00:43:20,130 --> 00:43:17,290 component there too if you have a 982 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:20,140 mindset that's built on material in 983 00:43:26,849 --> 00:43:23,290 universe and you're the mini god that's 984 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:26,859 in charge of it but there is a lot of 985 00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:29,650 focus on you're the one that has to 986 00:43:33,930 --> 00:43:31,750 maintain control of this whole thing you 987 00:43:37,109 --> 00:43:33,940 you there are no external forces 988 00:43:39,450 --> 00:43:37,119 spiritual forces angels God Jesus 989 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:39,460 whatever that can help you deal with 990 00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:41,890 this you are alone you know in your 991 00:43:48,930 --> 00:43:46,000 universe so it puts a lot of pressure on 992 00:43:51,049 --> 00:43:48,940 us to I think that we have to maintain 993 00:43:53,940 --> 00:43:51,059 this or it's all going down the drain 994 00:43:56,490 --> 00:43:53,950 you know what we can't kind of avoid 995 00:43:58,410 --> 00:43:56,500 some of the religious overtones because 996 00:44:01,440 --> 00:43:58,420 they keep popping up in a way that is 997 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:01,450 just challenging interesting let's talk 998 00:44:08,730 --> 00:44:05,010 about God it's something you talk about 999 00:44:11,970 --> 00:44:08,740 in a number of different ways we should 1000 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:11,980 start with what we think we mean by God 1001 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:14,170 but no let's start with a different 1002 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:17,530 point let's start with dr. Jeff along 1003 00:44:22,099 --> 00:44:19,450 who has been on the show several times 1004 00:44:24,660 --> 00:44:22,109 and who you do a beautiful job of 1005 00:44:26,789 --> 00:44:24,670 representing his work understanding his 1006 00:44:28,980 --> 00:44:26,799 work studying his work and the one data 1007 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:28,990 point we can kind of throw in people's 1008 00:44:34,589 --> 00:44:31,930 face there is that Jeff long of course 1009 00:44:37,559 --> 00:44:34,599 is this radiation oncologist in 1010 00:44:40,170 --> 00:44:37,569 Louisiana who I always love you know the 1011 00:44:42,660 --> 00:44:40,180 synopsis of his story he's a he's 1012 00:44:45,030 --> 00:44:42,670 becoming a physician you know and he's 1013 00:44:46,559 --> 00:44:45,040 going through all his coursework and 1014 00:44:49,740 --> 00:44:46,569 he's studying it he comes across these 1015 00:44:52,380 --> 00:44:49,750 cases and he goes wow you know this 1016 00:44:54,420 --> 00:44:52,390 person came back from the dead from 1017 00:44:56,130 --> 00:44:54,430 clinical death and he goes to his 1018 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:56,140 colleagues he says what about this you 1019 00:44:58,099 --> 00:44:56,490 know what 1020 00:45:00,200 --> 00:44:58,109 and they're like hey man just I'm 1021 00:45:02,390 --> 00:45:00,210 studying for the test I wanna you know 1022 00:45:04,010 --> 00:45:02,400 don't don't worry about that kind of 1023 00:45:05,660 --> 00:45:04,020 thing he's like what do you mean don't 1024 00:45:07,670 --> 00:45:05,670 worry about it it's kind of fundamental 1025 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:07,680 but he he kind of plows through and he 1026 00:45:13,099 --> 00:45:09,810 becomes a very successful doctor but he 1027 00:45:14,900 --> 00:45:13,109 has in his mind that this is important 1028 00:45:17,450 --> 00:45:14,910 and I love cuz I think it relates to 1029 00:45:19,220 --> 00:45:17,460 people like you and I who just won't let 1030 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:19,230 go of stuff and say no no wait a minute 1031 00:45:24,380 --> 00:45:21,930 I'm pretty sure that the the ignoring of 1032 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:24,390 this is not a good idea so Jeff long 1033 00:45:27,589 --> 00:45:25,890 does that and he writes a New York Times 1034 00:45:30,700 --> 00:45:27,599 best-selling book compiles largest 1035 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:30,710 database of scientifically controlled 1036 00:45:36,050 --> 00:45:33,930 survey of near-death experiencers but 1037 00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:36,060 then he writes this second book and in 1038 00:45:41,180 --> 00:45:38,640 the second book he goes right to the god 1039 00:45:43,099 --> 00:45:41,190 thing and he doesn't do it for himself 1040 00:45:44,930 --> 00:45:43,109 he does it with these people have had 1041 00:45:47,660 --> 00:45:44,940 near-death experiences and he says is 1042 00:45:50,060 --> 00:45:47,670 there God is there a moral imperative to 1043 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:50,070 this is there a hierarchy to this 1044 00:45:55,339 --> 00:45:53,010 extended consciousness that you're seem 1045 00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:55,349 to be placed into after having these 1046 00:46:01,849 --> 00:45:57,690 near-death experience and they say 1047 00:46:04,130 --> 00:46:01,859 absolutely all over the place they say 1048 00:46:06,589 --> 00:46:04,140 it and as a matter of fact he says it's 1049 00:46:10,339 --> 00:46:06,599 severely under reported by near-death 1050 00:46:13,970 --> 00:46:10,349 experience researchers and that God is 1051 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:13,980 actually more highly reported than the 1052 00:46:17,750 --> 00:46:16,170 whole tunnel thing right so our whole 1053 00:46:19,310 --> 00:46:17,760 association with near-death experiences 1054 00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:19,320 you go through this light a tunnel he 1055 00:46:24,020 --> 00:46:21,599 says hey I'm sorry look at the data the 1056 00:46:26,660 --> 00:46:24,030 data that's there the tunnel is no doubt 1057 00:46:30,140 --> 00:46:26,670 there in a large number of cases but God 1058 00:46:31,670 --> 00:46:30,150 is there even more so I don't know what 1059 00:46:35,089 --> 00:46:31,680 that means and I'm not a religious 1060 00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:35,099 person I'm not Christian but I do think 1061 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:38,310 like you said following the data with 1062 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:40,890 regarded near-death experience does 1063 00:46:46,430 --> 00:46:43,890 bring us to God moral imperative 1064 00:46:48,890 --> 00:46:46,440 hierarchy of consciousness however you 1065 00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:48,900 want to say it so let that be a 1066 00:46:54,410 --> 00:46:50,970 launching point for any thoughts you 1067 00:46:57,530 --> 00:46:54,420 have about the God issue well the first 1068 00:47:00,650 --> 00:46:57,540 huge thought for me is how is it that 1069 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:00,660 word light 40-plus years into modern 1070 00:47:06,230 --> 00:47:03,450 near-death experience research how is it 1071 00:47:08,300 --> 00:47:06,240 that it's taken all this time for a 1072 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:08,310 researcher like Jeff long to come out 1073 00:47:14,990 --> 00:47:10,410 and actually acknowledge 1074 00:47:17,630 --> 00:47:15,000 the central role that God plays in these 1075 00:47:21,260 --> 00:47:17,640 experiences why why has it been ignored 1076 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:21,270 overlooked or overlooked by researchers 1077 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:24,090 all these years and I think it has to do 1078 00:47:29,830 --> 00:47:26,970 with the materialistic culture that were 1079 00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:29,840 in the materialistic way that science is 1080 00:47:35,570 --> 00:47:32,250 kind of forced to look at everything 1081 00:47:39,980 --> 00:47:35,580 that it was just too hot of a topic for 1082 00:47:42,590 --> 00:47:39,990 a credible mainstream scientist to take 1083 00:47:46,490 --> 00:47:42,600 up because there's such a scientific 1084 00:47:48,140 --> 00:47:46,500 bias against God and other spiritual 1085 00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:48,150 things that are just too hot of the 1086 00:47:53,900 --> 00:47:51,450 topic to you know engage until just the 1087 00:47:55,580 --> 00:47:53,910 last couple of years so and I think 1088 00:47:58,610 --> 00:47:55,590 there are other topics like that as well 1089 00:48:01,010 --> 00:47:58,620 that really have been ignored grievously 1090 00:48:02,660 --> 00:48:01,020 with serious consequences and we're just 1091 00:48:05,210 --> 00:48:02,670 beginning to come around and try to pick 1092 00:48:06,950 --> 00:48:05,220 up in other words the the stories 1093 00:48:08,900 --> 00:48:06,960 themselves have been here for us all 1094 00:48:11,420 --> 00:48:08,910 these years they've been being collected 1095 00:48:14,780 --> 00:48:11,430 they've been being analyzed and data 1096 00:48:16,430 --> 00:48:14,790 based and archived and studied but we're 1097 00:48:17,870 --> 00:48:16,440 just now at the point where we're 1098 00:48:19,730 --> 00:48:17,880 beginning to drill into some of the 1099 00:48:23,450 --> 00:48:19,740 bigger points like Jeff did on this 1100 00:48:25,730 --> 00:48:23,460 particular topic hey guys just to make a 1101 00:48:27,290 --> 00:48:25,740 note of this there's this God presence 1102 00:48:29,420 --> 00:48:27,300 that's really dominating these 1103 00:48:31,340 --> 00:48:29,430 experiences we need to acknowledge that 1104 00:48:33,140 --> 00:48:31,350 and do something with it right and let's 1105 00:48:35,810 --> 00:48:33,150 drill into that a little bit more 1106 00:48:40,070 --> 00:48:35,820 because as you say it is underreported 1107 00:48:43,250 --> 00:48:40,080 and under analyzed if you will so what 1108 00:48:45,860 --> 00:48:43,260 these people are consistently saying in 1109 00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:45,870 a number of different ways from a wide 1110 00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:48,650 variety of different religious or 1111 00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:51,510 non-religious backgrounds they're saying 1112 00:48:56,990 --> 00:48:55,170 in the term I always slip into to avoid 1113 00:49:01,220 --> 00:48:57,000 some of the baggage that goes along with 1114 00:49:03,970 --> 00:49:01,230 God is a hierarchy of consciousness so 1115 00:49:07,370 --> 00:49:03,980 they're there and they say hey there was 1116 00:49:11,390 --> 00:49:07,380 definitely this power this spiritual 1117 00:49:15,370 --> 00:49:11,400 force and it was way beyond whatever 1118 00:49:18,350 --> 00:49:15,380 I've experienced as my ego myself I am 1119 00:49:21,020 --> 00:49:18,360 however you want to put that in any kind 1120 00:49:24,100 --> 00:49:21,030 of non-dual or religious thing they go 1121 00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:24,110 no no no no no it was separate from 1122 00:49:31,540 --> 00:49:28,730 that and it was higher than that and let 1123 00:49:33,610 --> 00:49:31,550 me ask you is there anything as a 1124 00:49:36,310 --> 00:49:33,620 starter that we need to add to that 1125 00:49:38,830 --> 00:49:36,320 because let's also acknowledge that is a 1126 00:49:41,110 --> 00:49:38,840 lot for people to swallow it is gonna 1127 00:49:44,590 --> 00:49:41,120 really that statement alone is gonna 1128 00:49:47,230 --> 00:49:44,600 piss people off and really send them 1129 00:49:48,910 --> 00:49:47,240 rocking because we've kind of 1130 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:48,920 constructed all these different 1131 00:49:54,370 --> 00:49:51,770 spiritual realities that says no it's 1132 00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:54,380 just kind of this amorphous kind of 1133 00:50:00,100 --> 00:49:57,290 consciousness and we're all floating and 1134 00:50:02,170 --> 00:50:00,110 drops of ocean and drops of water in the 1135 00:50:05,020 --> 00:50:02,180 ocean which may be true on some level 1136 00:50:08,050 --> 00:50:05,030 too but I'm just saying this data comes 1137 00:50:09,910 --> 00:50:08,060 through and clearly says something 1138 00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:09,920 different that I think we have to deal 1139 00:50:14,140 --> 00:50:12,410 with what are your thoughts on that or 1140 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:14,150 additions that you'd have to that yeah 1141 00:50:20,770 --> 00:50:17,570 well what I would add to that is first 1142 00:50:22,780 --> 00:50:20,780 of all not everyone has an encounter 1143 00:50:24,610 --> 00:50:22,790 with a personal God on the other side 1144 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:24,620 and you know the majority of people 1145 00:50:30,010 --> 00:50:26,810 report that but many people do not many 1146 00:50:32,590 --> 00:50:30,020 people have more of a generic you know 1147 00:50:34,870 --> 00:50:32,600 loving you know more along the lines of 1148 00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:34,880 some of the Eastern traditions so you 1149 00:50:38,590 --> 00:50:36,650 know cosmic consciousness being one with 1150 00:50:42,670 --> 00:50:38,600 the universe knowing ourselves to be one 1151 00:50:44,740 --> 00:50:42,680 or God and so on but a significant 1152 00:50:48,070 --> 00:50:44,750 portion of these experiences report a 1153 00:50:50,110 --> 00:50:48,080 Supreme Being in some form form of a 1154 00:50:51,790 --> 00:50:50,120 light usually is the way that most 1155 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:51,800 people experience this but it's 1156 00:50:57,220 --> 00:50:54,650 definitely a distinct being different 1157 00:51:01,690 --> 00:50:57,230 from oneself yet connected to oneself 1158 00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:01,700 that is identified as our Creator but 1159 00:51:05,620 --> 00:51:03,440 then they go a step further like it's 1160 00:51:08,850 --> 00:51:05,630 not just they're doing nothing just 1161 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:08,860 emoting love like the Sun it's actually 1162 00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:13,370 actively engaged in our lives and that 1163 00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:15,170 traces back if you look at you know 1164 00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:18,110 again Jesus comes up in that context 1165 00:51:21,490 --> 00:51:19,850 where you have you hit the way he 1166 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:21,500 described his relationship we talked 1167 00:51:27,010 --> 00:51:24,290 about it is lava you know Papa a 1168 00:51:30,490 --> 00:51:27,020 personal relationship with this Supreme 1169 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:30,500 Being that is active in our world and in 1170 00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:34,010 our in our lives so near-death 1171 00:51:39,099 --> 00:51:36,710 experiences honor the whole gamut they 1172 00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:39,109 honor the personal God saying that many 1173 00:51:44,980 --> 00:51:41,680 many people report they also honor 1174 00:51:47,050 --> 00:51:44,990 people not having an encounter with the 1175 00:51:48,970 --> 00:51:47,060 Supreme Being like that it's more of 1176 00:51:51,099 --> 00:51:48,980 just encountering the universe as though 1177 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:51,109 everything's alive and it's full of love 1178 00:51:55,510 --> 00:51:53,450 and so there's just all kinds of 1179 00:51:57,670 --> 00:51:55,520 different elements involved with this 1180 00:51:59,260 --> 00:51:57,680 particular topic and one of the elements 1181 00:52:01,839 --> 00:51:59,270 that you just talked about and let's 1182 00:52:06,490 --> 00:52:01,849 rest here for a second is this idea of 1183 00:52:09,339 --> 00:52:06,500 agency being able to affect this world 1184 00:52:11,650 --> 00:52:09,349 if you will and this kind of ties back 1185 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:11,660 to what we're talking about with the 1186 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:14,810 edgar cayce stuff right because you can 1187 00:52:20,950 --> 00:52:18,170 come at this agency thing from a number 1188 00:52:23,710 --> 00:52:20,960 of different paranormal extended 1189 00:52:26,079 --> 00:52:23,720 consciousness angles so let me make sure 1190 00:52:29,490 --> 00:52:26,089 I'm not just doing word salad here that 1191 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:29,500 no one can follow edgar cayce is 1192 00:52:34,990 --> 00:52:32,810 transcending our space-time reality in 1193 00:52:38,079 --> 00:52:35,000 every way that w verse it's just kind of 1194 00:52:41,140 --> 00:52:38,089 indisputable we have no way no other way 1195 00:52:43,450 --> 00:52:41,150 of explaining what he's doing how he's 1196 00:52:46,750 --> 00:52:43,460 getting a letter from Omaha and saying 1197 00:52:48,900 --> 00:52:46,760 go down to a drugstore that seven miles 1198 00:52:53,079 --> 00:52:48,910 away and on this third shelf in the back 1199 00:52:55,510 --> 00:52:53,089 that transcends our understanding of 1200 00:52:59,290 --> 00:52:55,520 space-time it's completely outside of 1201 00:53:00,579 --> 00:52:59,300 our reality so he's there and he's then 1202 00:53:05,829 --> 00:53:00,589 this is the important part 1203 00:53:07,750 --> 00:53:05,839 he is affecting this reality and that we 1204 00:53:09,940 --> 00:53:07,760 can't even understand that we can get 1205 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:09,950 into kind of a sci-fi kind of you know 1206 00:53:14,859 --> 00:53:13,130 back to the future if you change the 1207 00:53:16,510 --> 00:53:14,869 timeline how do you know there's a whole 1208 00:53:17,620 --> 00:53:16,520 bunch of questions about that then 1209 00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:17,630 there's a whole bunch of questions about 1210 00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:19,970 that of you know can only good effect 1211 00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:21,890 that or can bad effect that too or can 1212 00:53:26,770 --> 00:53:23,690 you curse someone so we open up that 1213 00:53:28,660 --> 00:53:26,780 whole thing but now we switch back over 1214 00:53:31,839 --> 00:53:28,670 here to what you're talking about and we 1215 00:53:35,589 --> 00:53:31,849 say now we have what is being presented 1216 00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:35,599 as some kind of if there is this 1217 00:53:40,990 --> 00:53:38,480 hierarchy it's it's known to us through 1218 00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:41,000 this experience to be way up there and 1219 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:44,210 it's saying oh yeah and by the way I 1220 00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:47,450 have agency I have ability to affect 1221 00:53:52,330 --> 00:53:50,090 your life and we if you will accept 1222 00:53:54,370 --> 00:53:52,340 the evidence we have some evidence of 1223 00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:54,380 that right because they come back and 1224 00:53:58,420 --> 00:53:56,480 they do things they heal people they 1225 00:54:01,360 --> 00:53:58,430 they say you will be healed after this 1226 00:54:03,490 --> 00:54:01,370 they say oh unfortunately you will be 1227 00:54:07,780 --> 00:54:03,500 healed after this but unfortunately your 1228 00:54:09,820 --> 00:54:07,790 son will die you know as a as a teenager 1229 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:09,830 and all these things become true or you 1230 00:54:13,810 --> 00:54:12,050 know all these things so I'm just trying 1231 00:54:16,540 --> 00:54:13,820 to frame them up what we're talking 1232 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:16,550 about and some of the problems and 1233 00:54:22,510 --> 00:54:19,370 challenges of where we go with this 1234 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:22,520 information because if we are stuck in 1235 00:54:29,410 --> 00:54:25,850 this time-space reality that is a small 1236 00:54:31,930 --> 00:54:29,420 portion of consciousness then let's 1237 00:54:33,010 --> 00:54:31,940 circle back and ask the question of what 1238 00:54:35,770 --> 00:54:33,020 are we supposed to do with this 1239 00:54:38,860 --> 00:54:35,780 information that is outside of that can 1240 00:54:40,870 --> 00:54:38,870 we really use it in the way that we want 1241 00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:40,880 to back to the whole purpose of your 1242 00:54:47,530 --> 00:54:43,610 book can we really say that these things 1243 00:54:50,710 --> 00:54:47,540 are so just because we're down here in 1244 00:54:52,690 --> 00:54:50,720 the bigger thing is out there does now 1245 00:54:58,420 --> 00:54:52,700 if I lost the thread do you know what I 1246 00:55:01,000 --> 00:54:58,430 mean yeah david Spangler gave a great 1247 00:55:05,770 --> 00:55:01,010 analogy for this idea of the invisible 1248 00:55:08,140 --> 00:55:05,780 world constantly influencing and being a 1249 00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:08,150 part of our normal world our material 1250 00:55:11,740 --> 00:55:09,680 world but were unaware of them in the 1251 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:11,750 example that he gave the analogy DK was 1252 00:55:18,190 --> 00:55:14,690 the microscope you know we for a long 1253 00:55:19,690 --> 00:55:18,200 time we had no concept of what the cells 1254 00:55:21,580 --> 00:55:19,700 in our body looked like until the 1255 00:55:22,930 --> 00:55:21,590 microscope was developed and it all said 1256 00:55:25,450 --> 00:55:22,940 you can drill down you can see oh my 1257 00:55:27,670 --> 00:55:25,460 gosh there's cells and bacteria and 1258 00:55:29,980 --> 00:55:27,680 viruses and there's all these invisible 1259 00:55:31,390 --> 00:55:29,990 beings that are operating in our 1260 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:31,400 physical universe that we were 1261 00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:33,290 completely unaware of until the 1262 00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:34,910 microscope was developed so that you 1263 00:55:38,950 --> 00:55:37,040 could actually see what these these 1264 00:55:42,100 --> 00:55:38,960 things existed and they were actually 1265 00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:42,110 affecting our physical world the point 1266 00:55:47,020 --> 00:55:44,510 being that in the same way that a 1267 00:55:49,060 --> 00:55:47,030 microscope allows us to see these hidden 1268 00:55:52,030 --> 00:55:49,070 forces in the material world there's a 1269 00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:52,040 spiritual world that also is constantly 1270 00:55:58,000 --> 00:55:54,530 interacting with us which we are unaware 1271 00:56:01,000 --> 00:55:58,010 of all we but we can see the impact of 1272 00:56:02,420 --> 00:56:01,010 their presence and of course if you 1273 00:56:05,690 --> 00:56:02,430 follow the data again 1274 00:56:08,180 --> 00:56:05,700 the stories are legion about encounters 1275 00:56:10,700 --> 00:56:08,190 that people have with angels of other 1276 00:56:13,549 --> 00:56:10,710 kinds of spiritual forces that you know 1277 00:56:15,799 --> 00:56:13,559 heal them or give them answers or a 1278 00:56:18,980 --> 00:56:15,809 dream or whatever it might be so the 1279 00:56:21,410 --> 00:56:18,990 point being that the data the stories 1280 00:56:25,039 --> 00:56:21,420 are legion they're everywhere all around 1281 00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:25,049 us even though from a scientific point 1282 00:56:28,700 --> 00:56:26,690 of view we haven't been able yet to 1283 00:56:31,309 --> 00:56:28,710 develop something that allows us to 1284 00:56:34,010 --> 00:56:31,319 tangibly see these forces in work at 1285 00:56:36,319 --> 00:56:34,020 work in this world right but even if we 1286 00:56:39,170 --> 00:56:36,329 were able to see those forces at work we 1287 00:56:42,230 --> 00:56:39,180 still have just an endless number of 1288 00:56:44,839 --> 00:56:42,240 questions about what kind of conclusions 1289 00:56:47,180 --> 00:56:44,849 we could draw on that it's back to this 1290 00:56:49,549 --> 00:56:47,190 shut up and calculate stuff I mean we're 1291 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:49,559 talking now through all this technology 1292 00:56:57,230 --> 00:56:53,490 that relies on these very fixed laws 1293 00:57:00,710 --> 00:56:57,240 being in place in operating reliably and 1294 00:57:03,859 --> 00:57:00,720 they fricking do and we can't get past 1295 00:57:06,859 --> 00:57:03,869 that so it's hard for us I would say 1296 00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:06,869 impossible for us to imagine from the 1297 00:57:12,859 --> 00:57:10,410 data what that interaction is because it 1298 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:12,869 doesn't seem to make any sense and then 1299 00:57:17,059 --> 00:57:15,210 I would also say that I would jump over 1300 00:57:20,180 --> 00:57:17,069 to our friends who are on the left-hand 1301 00:57:22,730 --> 00:57:20,190 path which is kind of misunderstood and 1302 00:57:24,980 --> 00:57:22,740 I'm not a left-hand path person but I 1303 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:24,990 appreciate many of the aspects about it 1304 00:57:31,370 --> 00:57:27,930 and they say so wait a minute why are we 1305 00:57:34,069 --> 00:57:31,380 limited then to only looking at the 1306 00:57:36,019 --> 00:57:34,079 forces that manifest in a certain way 1307 00:57:37,819 --> 00:57:36,029 and I guess what I'm saying is what 1308 00:57:40,430 --> 00:57:37,829 you're gonna call this kind of churchy 1309 00:57:43,910 --> 00:57:40,440 good stuff why don't we look at the full 1310 00:57:46,309 --> 00:57:43,920 spectrum of forces that are impacting 1311 00:57:49,730 --> 00:57:46,319 our world and let's take a step back 1312 00:57:52,370 --> 00:57:49,740 from the highly judgmental you know this 1313 00:57:55,039 --> 00:57:52,380 is good or bad because we're living in a 1314 00:57:59,569 --> 00:57:55,049 world of contradictions we're living in 1315 00:58:00,859 --> 00:57:59,579 this manifest destiny United States kick 1316 00:58:03,829 --> 00:58:00,869 ass take names 1317 00:58:07,279 --> 00:58:03,839 conquer everybody and then you know 1318 00:58:09,370 --> 00:58:07,289 enslave everybody but then be higher and 1319 00:58:13,370 --> 00:58:09,380 better than theirs contradictions 1320 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:13,380 everywhere we look so let's unpack that 1321 00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:15,370 and chat about that for a minute 1322 00:58:20,190 --> 00:58:18,490 well I think the main thing you're 1323 00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:20,200 releasing anything that comes up to me 1324 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:23,110 when you're saying that is that yes in 1325 00:58:27,630 --> 00:58:25,330 the same way that we have spiritual 1326 00:58:30,690 --> 00:58:27,640 forces that are unseen we have demonic 1327 00:58:33,180 --> 00:58:30,700 forces the evil forces dark forces that 1328 00:58:37,110 --> 00:58:33,190 are at work in our world and those also 1329 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:37,120 need to be factored in and we need we 1330 00:58:40,980 --> 00:58:38,650 need to step into that whole arena and 1331 00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:40,990 that's another arena that the near-death 1332 00:58:44,550 --> 00:58:42,970 experience movement as a whole has not 1333 00:58:47,580 --> 00:58:44,560 really come to terms with in the same 1334 00:58:50,220 --> 00:58:47,590 way that this personal God thing is just 1335 00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:50,230 emerging on the scene as a books are 1336 00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:52,090 being written about it finally we 1337 00:58:58,020 --> 00:58:55,570 haven't really dealt with the reality of 1338 00:58:59,850 --> 00:58:58,030 Hell and hellish experience and demonic 1339 00:59:01,680 --> 00:58:59,860 spirits and what's that all about and 1340 00:59:03,750 --> 00:59:01,690 how do they influence us and how can we 1341 00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:03,760 how does this fit within the grand 1342 00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:05,290 scheme of things and the purpose of life 1343 00:59:08,220 --> 00:59:06,250 what's all that about 1344 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:08,230 and that's that's an area that I think 1345 00:59:13,550 --> 00:59:10,810 we really need to know more about and it 1346 00:59:16,290 --> 00:59:13,560 has very very tangible practical 1347 00:59:18,330 --> 00:59:16,300 application in our everyday life oK 1348 00:59:20,820 --> 00:59:18,340 you've kind of walked right into one 1349 00:59:24,060 --> 00:59:20,830 there in terms of the whole thing let's 1350 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:24,070 talk about that you have an article on 1351 00:59:29,730 --> 00:59:26,850 your website it has probably the most 1352 00:59:32,820 --> 00:59:29,740 comprehensive collection I've seen of 1353 00:59:34,770 --> 00:59:32,830 these hellish near-death experiences and 1354 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:34,780 they really grab people they really grab 1355 00:59:38,370 --> 00:59:35,890 a lot of people people are very 1356 00:59:40,380 --> 00:59:38,380 interested in this topic some of the 1357 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:40,390 highlights that you point out from your 1358 00:59:48,180 --> 00:59:44,010 data is that they are significantly 1359 00:59:50,490 --> 00:59:48,190 underreported again by searchers as much 1360 00:59:53,010 --> 00:59:50,500 as we like to praise this research they 1361 00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:53,020 seem to kind of want to dance around 1362 00:59:58,050 --> 00:59:55,210 this issue and just under report it um 1363 01:00:00,630 --> 00:59:58,060 they say - not just it's just it's not 1364 01:00:02,400 --> 01:00:00,640 just the researchers problem it's also a 1365 01:00:04,650 --> 01:00:02,410 problem with the way our culture is 1366 01:00:06,390 --> 01:00:04,660 designed that people are stigmatized if 1367 01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:06,400 they have this experience and they don't 1368 01:00:13,410 --> 01:00:08,610 want to talk about it okay fair enough 1369 01:00:17,310 --> 01:00:13,420 but man it's just where people go with 1370 01:00:19,020 --> 01:00:17,320 this I think is really challenging as 1371 01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:19,030 well and challenging that's such a soft 1372 01:00:24,630 --> 01:00:21,520 word it's really difficult to because it 1373 01:00:28,050 --> 01:00:24,640 brushes right up against some other 1374 01:00:28,890 --> 01:00:28,060 that I know is fake and false from and I 1375 01:00:31,650 --> 01:00:28,900 don't know it's 1376 01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:31,660 fake and false but in the same way in 1377 01:00:37,590 --> 01:00:34,570 the same way that we can say you know 1378 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:37,600 what the atheistic you are a biological 1379 01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:40,210 robot in a meaningless universe that 1380 01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:42,850 data hasn't just been falsified it's 1381 01:00:50,100 --> 01:00:47,290 been purposely and systematically fed 1382 01:00:52,020 --> 01:00:50,110 into the system for a particular reason 1383 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:52,030 there's really no other way for me to 1384 01:00:57,090 --> 01:00:53,530 interpret that data because it's such a 1385 01:00:59,610 --> 01:00:57,100 stupid idea you know it just is the your 1386 01:01:01,470 --> 01:00:59,620 consciousness is an illusion we can 1387 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:01,480 break that down and it's a silly idea 1388 01:01:06,540 --> 01:01:04,450 but in the same way some of the 1389 01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:06,550 Christian and other religious dogma but 1390 01:01:12,810 --> 01:01:09,090 let's focus on the Christian dogma is 1391 01:01:15,540 --> 01:01:12,820 completely corrupt and is falsifiable in 1392 01:01:18,090 --> 01:01:15,550 a number of ways and has been deeply 1393 01:01:19,770 --> 01:01:18,100 destructive to a lot of groups and a lot 1394 01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:19,780 of people and I'm not telling you 1395 01:01:24,150 --> 01:01:21,490 anything that we haven't had an email 1396 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:24,160 exchange about already but you know if 1397 01:01:29,610 --> 01:01:25,770 you want to go way back go back to 1398 01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:29,620 constantine the father you know what a 1399 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:32,410 corrupt individual what a corrupt system 1400 01:01:40,170 --> 01:01:35,410 that he put in place called the catholic 1401 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:40,180 church in 300 whatever it was in slaves 1402 01:01:44,730 --> 01:01:42,730 all these people takes away all their 1403 01:01:47,190 --> 01:01:44,740 power and really just substitute it with 1404 01:01:48,900 --> 01:01:47,200 this church that is a perfect reflection 1405 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:48,910 of the roman church 1406 01:01:53,250 --> 01:01:51,250 but then fast-forward with everything 1407 01:01:55,500 --> 01:01:53,260 all the evils we've seen with 1408 01:01:58,800 --> 01:01:55,510 christianity right up to the current 1409 01:02:02,430 --> 01:01:58,810 pedo pope and the sex scandal and yet 1410 01:02:05,660 --> 01:02:02,440 you're asking us to read the bible and 1411 01:02:08,820 --> 01:02:05,670 use the bible as this fundamentally 1412 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:08,830 uncorrupted source of truth there seems 1413 01:02:15,060 --> 01:02:12,370 to be a real real mismatch there and it 1414 01:02:17,670 --> 01:02:15,070 is going to rile a lot of people when 1415 01:02:20,730 --> 01:02:17,680 they hear you talk about the way you do 1416 01:02:23,550 --> 01:02:20,740 about hell and that we should literally 1417 01:02:26,310 --> 01:02:23,560 understand these hellish experiences to 1418 01:02:30,140 --> 01:02:26,320 be as they're described in the bible and 1419 01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:30,150 all the rest of that well hold on let me 1420 01:02:35,630 --> 01:02:33,000 you're talking about 1421 01:02:39,200 --> 01:02:35,640 first of all where I'm coming from is 1422 01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:39,210 data and in this case big data so I'm 1423 01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:41,730 not talking about only Christian 1424 01:02:47,030 --> 01:02:44,400 experiences and Christian reports of the 1425 01:02:49,579 --> 01:02:47,040 hellish realms I'm talking about that 1426 01:02:52,309 --> 01:02:49,589 your your atheist on the corner who ends 1427 01:02:56,059 --> 01:02:52,319 up in hell this room or let's go back to 1428 01:02:58,220 --> 01:02:56,069 Plato and talk about what you know there 1429 01:02:59,390 --> 01:02:58,230 was a guy then it was called er who was 1430 01:03:01,730 --> 01:02:59,400 a soldier who had a near-death 1431 01:03:05,630 --> 01:03:01,740 experience that Plato talked about and 1432 01:03:07,280 --> 01:03:05,640 recording in the Republic he had part of 1433 01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:07,290 his near-death experience with a vision 1434 01:03:13,309 --> 01:03:10,650 of the hellish realm so he'll and 1435 01:03:16,780 --> 01:03:13,319 hellish domains and realms do are not 1436 01:03:19,099 --> 01:03:16,790 owned by Christians the fact one of the 1437 01:03:21,470 --> 01:03:19,109 there's a fantastic book that's been 1438 01:03:23,540 --> 01:03:21,480 published recently by the Tibetan 1439 01:03:25,370 --> 01:03:23,550 Buddhist American Tibetan Buddhist that 1440 01:03:28,940 --> 01:03:25,380 talked about his experience as a 1441 01:03:30,859 --> 01:03:28,950 Buddhist his encounters and tours that 1442 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:30,869 he was taken on a tour of the hellish 1443 01:03:36,140 --> 01:03:33,810 rooms by of the Buddha of Hell so this 1444 01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:36,150 is not just a Christian phenomena that's 1445 01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:38,450 the first thing it's important to 1446 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:41,910 separate Hell from Christianity this is 1447 01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:44,010 a collective human experience that's 1448 01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:47,130 happened throughout the ages and the 1449 01:03:52,550 --> 01:03:50,010 second thing would be to begin to take a 1450 01:03:54,770 --> 01:03:52,560 look at Hell from through the window of 1451 01:03:56,300 --> 01:03:54,780 the big data you know let's get all 1452 01:03:58,880 --> 01:03:56,310 these stories together let's put them on 1453 01:04:01,790 --> 01:03:58,890 the table let's do it we can to strip 1454 01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:01,800 out the in culture the inappropriate 1455 01:04:05,660 --> 01:04:04,170 destructive acculturation of the various 1456 01:04:07,849 --> 01:04:05,670 people that are coming to the table with 1457 01:04:10,700 --> 01:04:07,859 these stories and let's see if we can 1458 01:04:12,470 --> 01:04:10,710 identify the core truths that run 1459 01:04:15,349 --> 01:04:12,480 throughout them that we need to learn 1460 01:04:16,700 --> 01:04:15,359 from and apply to whatever up to our 1461 01:04:18,530 --> 01:04:16,710 particular life into our particular 1462 01:04:20,930 --> 01:04:18,540 culture that's what I'm talking about 1463 01:04:23,359 --> 01:04:20,940 and that's by the way that's what the 1464 01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:23,369 resource page on the formula website 1465 01:04:28,099 --> 01:04:26,010 that deals with Hell gives a broad 1466 01:04:29,950 --> 01:04:28,109 perspective of these experiences from 1467 01:04:34,670 --> 01:04:29,960 all over the place not just Christians 1468 01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:34,680 okay with you to a certain extent but I 1469 01:04:37,010 --> 01:04:36,450 think we've got to do a little reality 1470 01:04:38,839 --> 01:04:37,020 check 1471 01:04:42,099 --> 01:04:38,849 I want to play a couple of these clips 1472 01:04:45,859 --> 01:04:42,109 that I got from Sid Roth an interesting 1473 01:04:46,230 --> 01:04:45,869 televangelist converted Jewish guy not 1474 01:04:47,460 --> 01:04:46,240 that that 1475 01:04:49,500 --> 01:04:47,470 makes any difference but it does make a 1476 01:04:52,710 --> 01:04:49,510 difference that he came to Christianity 1477 01:04:54,420 --> 01:04:52,720 not from his cultural background but you 1478 01:04:55,980 --> 01:04:54,430 know he was brought up and the Jewish 1479 01:04:57,900 --> 01:04:55,990 tradition and some Christian guy comes 1480 01:04:59,430 --> 01:04:57,910 along and says oh it's got to be Jesus 1481 01:05:01,830 --> 01:04:59,440 and he goes he has his personal 1482 01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:01,840 experience with Jesus and then as Jesus 1483 01:05:08,060 --> 01:05:04,690 leads them to Christianity and here he 1484 01:05:11,820 --> 01:05:08,070 is leading a bunch of other people unto 1485 01:05:14,820 --> 01:05:11,830 what hell is real about now who are 1486 01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:14,830 about to know what hell has purposely 1487 01:05:35,100 --> 01:05:30,490 kept from you it's near 2000 how was it 1488 01:05:39,420 --> 01:05:35,110 no I was so depressed I had planned my 1489 01:05:42,260 --> 01:05:39,430 suicide different times and my life just 1490 01:05:45,420 --> 01:05:42,270 didn't feel I had hurt and pain 1491 01:05:48,330 --> 01:05:45,430 rejection inside of me and I didn't know 1492 01:05:49,620 --> 01:05:48,340 what to do with it now that person there 1493 01:05:51,720 --> 01:05:49,630 who were going to hear more from in a 1494 01:05:53,670 --> 01:05:51,730 minute is her name is Laura dotty and 1495 01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:53,680 she's written this book about her 1496 01:05:58,260 --> 01:05:55,810 hellish experience and there's some 1497 01:06:01,380 --> 01:05:58,270 really important things that I think we 1498 01:06:03,090 --> 01:06:01,390 can add to our conversation in a super 1499 01:06:06,450 --> 01:06:03,100 interesting level three kind of 1500 01:06:08,900 --> 01:06:06,460 skeptical way one is the experience that 1501 01:06:11,790 --> 01:06:08,910 she's about to describe and it is 1502 01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:11,800 terrifying and I just have a small clip 1503 01:06:15,870 --> 01:06:14,050 from it the overall thing is just more 1504 01:06:17,730 --> 01:06:15,880 terrifying than the worst horror movie 1505 01:06:19,290 --> 01:06:17,740 you've ever seen but this was an 1506 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:19,300 experience that was not through a 1507 01:06:24,660 --> 01:06:22,330 near-death experience but was through 1508 01:06:26,820 --> 01:06:24,670 what we would normally call a paranormal 1509 01:06:29,280 --> 01:06:26,830 experience she had again this space time 1510 01:06:32,070 --> 01:06:29,290 shift interesting that she was at an 1511 01:06:33,780 --> 01:06:32,080 evangelical retreat I mean the one thing 1512 01:06:35,940 --> 01:06:33,790 I get from this story is this sounds 1513 01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:35,950 like a woman a virtuous woman who's 1514 01:06:41,430 --> 01:06:38,650 living a good life and doing all the 1515 01:06:44,580 --> 01:06:41,440 right things and yet she visits hell and 1516 01:06:46,530 --> 01:06:44,590 she has his experience and it's a whole 1517 01:06:48,660 --> 01:06:46,540 experience that only lasts a few seconds 1518 01:06:51,630 --> 01:06:48,670 she wakes up kind of where she's passed 1519 01:06:53,390 --> 01:06:51,640 out in the retreat but let's get on to 1520 01:06:56,340 --> 01:06:53,400 her experience let me play that for you 1521 01:06:56,760 --> 01:06:56,350 to always be in pain and to know that it 1522 01:07:01,020 --> 01:06:56,770 was 1523 01:07:03,329 --> 01:07:01,030 keep getting worse and worse and worse I 1524 01:07:05,820 --> 01:07:03,339 was never going to end that was the 1525 01:07:08,609 --> 01:07:05,830 thing it wasn't like you could reach a 1526 01:07:12,690 --> 01:07:08,619 pinnacle in inhale it worked the same as 1527 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:12,700 in heaven my full brain operated and I 1528 01:07:18,510 --> 01:07:16,570 knew I knew all of Matthew 18 I knew 1529 01:07:20,310 --> 01:07:18,520 every scripture that I'd ever read and 1530 01:07:21,660 --> 01:07:20,320 I've read the whole Bible I knew every 1531 01:07:23,339 --> 01:07:21,670 scripture that I've ever read and it 1532 01:07:26,010 --> 01:07:23,349 made complete sense and it was 1533 01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:26,020 completely righteous that I was in hell 1534 01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:28,930 and there were people there they just 1535 01:07:38,579 --> 01:07:33,970 liked me Jesus is the Lord God but they 1536 01:07:40,800 --> 01:07:38,589 refused to obey Him they say we love you 1537 01:07:45,420 --> 01:07:40,810 we love you but the Scriptures teach if 1538 01:07:48,690 --> 01:07:45,430 you love me then obey me I think that's 1539 01:07:52,859 --> 01:07:48,700 why so many people are a little bit 1540 01:07:56,010 --> 01:07:52,869 taken aback by these hellish accounts 1541 01:07:59,940 --> 01:07:56,020 that come through from fundamentalist 1542 01:08:01,740 --> 01:07:59,950 Christians so say about God I was going 1543 01:08:03,060 --> 01:08:01,750 to ask you can you can you elaborate on 1544 01:08:05,220 --> 01:08:03,070 what you mean by that are you talking 1545 01:08:06,690 --> 01:08:05,230 about the Jesus part are you talking 1546 01:08:10,589 --> 01:08:06,700 about her experience in hell 1547 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:10,599 her conclusion from it it's incredibly 1548 01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:14,650 powerful testimony but her vision about 1549 01:08:18,630 --> 01:08:17,290 to me from my interpretation of the 1550 01:08:21,450 --> 01:08:18,640 near-death experience data 1551 01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:21,460 it's starkly in contrast of what 1552 01:08:26,249 --> 01:08:24,130 near-death experience researchers tell 1553 01:08:28,950 --> 01:08:26,259 us go listen my interview with Jeff long 1554 01:08:31,349 --> 01:08:28,960 he said exactly the opposite he says 1555 01:08:34,590 --> 01:08:31,359 I've compiled all that I've looked at 1556 01:08:38,999 --> 01:08:34,600 all of it there is an infinitely loving 1557 01:08:43,470 --> 01:08:39,009 God not there to punish us not there to 1558 01:08:45,840 --> 01:08:43,480 demand that we follow his Creed he says 1559 01:08:47,940 --> 01:08:45,850 all that does not come through in the 1560 01:08:50,550 --> 01:08:47,950 data as a matter of fact he says that 1561 01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:50,560 the data contradicts that conclusion and 1562 01:08:55,590 --> 01:08:53,410 yet she is entitled or her experience 1563 01:08:57,900 --> 01:08:55,600 I'm not taking that away but I'm just 1564 01:09:00,690 --> 01:08:57,910 saying in this game of trying to figure 1565 01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:00,700 out again from the wrong end of the 1566 01:09:05,490 --> 01:09:03,130 telescope what's really going on in this 1567 01:09:06,870 --> 01:09:05,500 extended consciousness realm if we're 1568 01:09:09,679 --> 01:09:06,880 gonna play the game if we're gonna 1569 01:09:12,079 --> 01:09:09,689 follow the data this isn't the data 1570 01:09:13,939 --> 01:09:12,089 I would I would suggest first of all 1571 01:09:17,329 --> 01:09:13,949 just to be clear so your readers 1572 01:09:19,609 --> 01:09:17,339 understand Jeffery long you know history 1573 01:09:21,499 --> 01:09:19,619 his research very much supports the idea 1574 01:09:23,269 --> 01:09:21,509 that there are these hellish and realms 1575 01:09:26,089 --> 01:09:23,279 he in fact here's a quote from him that 1576 01:09:28,099 --> 01:09:26,099 says quote the most frightening things 1577 01:09:30,979 --> 01:09:28,109 that I've encountered in my life are not 1578 01:09:33,109 --> 01:09:30,989 from fictional books or scary movies but 1579 01:09:35,899 --> 01:09:33,119 from near-death experiences with hellish 1580 01:09:39,739 --> 01:09:35,909 content so he's not saying there's no 1581 01:09:42,049 --> 01:09:39,749 hell he's just saying that you know God 1582 01:09:44,509 --> 01:09:42,059 is not sending people to hell which is a 1583 01:09:46,909 --> 01:09:44,519 common theme among near-death 1584 01:09:48,409 --> 01:09:46,919 experiences as a whole I think they're 1585 01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:48,419 saying something different I think 1586 01:09:51,919 --> 01:09:50,130 they're saying something else and this 1587 01:09:53,449 --> 01:09:51,929 is where it's hard because people are 1588 01:09:56,779 --> 01:09:53,459 gonna have to make their own opinion on 1589 01:09:59,270 --> 01:09:56,789 this but the way I read this data is 1590 01:10:03,199 --> 01:09:59,280 there are a lot of scary movies out 1591 01:10:07,310 --> 01:10:03,209 there and you may have to watch a scary 1592 01:10:10,250 --> 01:10:07,320 movie that may be on your path to help 1593 01:10:13,219 --> 01:10:10,260 your overall learning and guiding of 1594 01:10:15,169 --> 01:10:13,229 your soul to where it needs to be but 1595 01:10:20,270 --> 01:10:15,179 don't take the scary movie too 1596 01:10:22,129 --> 01:10:20,280 seriously because if it is a lesson and 1597 01:10:25,009 --> 01:10:22,139 I don't like that word but if that's the 1598 01:10:27,949 --> 01:10:25,019 meaning of it don't go off and interpret 1599 01:10:30,919 --> 01:10:27,959 it as some kind of reality or you've 1600 01:10:33,379 --> 01:10:30,929 lost the path again because you do have 1601 01:10:35,330 --> 01:10:33,389 to pick up and you do have to tomorrow 1602 01:10:37,159 --> 01:10:35,340 comes and you have to do the best you 1603 01:10:39,949 --> 01:10:37,169 can and you have to encounter other 1604 01:10:42,069 --> 01:10:39,959 people who even though they seem evil or 1605 01:10:45,199 --> 01:10:42,079 satanic or whatever the hell you think 1606 01:10:47,750 --> 01:10:45,209 they're doing the best they can and 1607 01:10:49,969 --> 01:10:47,760 they're trying to figure things out and 1608 01:10:52,729 --> 01:10:49,979 they're making horrible mistakes and 1609 01:10:56,029 --> 01:10:52,739 horrible decisions but God doesn't love 1610 01:10:58,549 --> 01:10:56,039 them any less than he loves you and he 1611 01:11:00,799 --> 01:10:58,559 is it waiting to punish them as 1612 01:11:04,100 --> 01:11:00,809 soon as he gets their hands on him all 1613 01:11:06,859 --> 01:11:04,110 that I think I not only believe that I 1614 01:11:09,529 --> 01:11:06,869 believe that because that's what the 1615 01:11:10,909 --> 01:11:09,539 data comes through over and over again 1616 01:11:13,310 --> 01:11:10,919 and says and that's why I guess what I'm 1617 01:11:15,589 --> 01:11:13,320 saying about Jeff long is yeah you what 1618 01:11:19,540 --> 01:11:15,599 you said is technically true but his 1619 01:11:23,470 --> 01:11:19,550 overall conclusion is that is not a 1620 01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:23,480 judgmental place it's not anything to be 1621 01:11:29,229 --> 01:11:25,930 feared it's part of your souls 1622 01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:29,239 experience it's a small movie that you 1623 01:11:35,170 --> 01:11:32,690 will walk into and walk out of well Alex 1624 01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:35,180 I agree with your main point I think 1625 01:11:40,570 --> 01:11:38,570 what's happening here is that we're 1626 01:11:42,910 --> 01:11:40,580 confronted using the Christian 1627 01:11:45,729 --> 01:11:42,920 experience typical Christian experiences 1628 01:11:48,310 --> 01:11:45,739 of Hell what we're confronted with is 1629 01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:48,320 are these you know experiences like the 1630 01:11:53,410 --> 01:11:51,770 one you just shared and I didn't the way 1631 01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:53,420 that I've come to understand it is you 1632 01:11:57,910 --> 01:11:56,210 have to separate the big picture which 1633 01:11:59,380 --> 01:11:57,920 is what you did shared everything is 1634 01:12:01,540 --> 01:11:59,390 wonderful in the universe these 1635 01:12:03,850 --> 01:12:01,550 experiences the hellish experiences 1636 01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:03,860 exist that they come and go don't get 1637 01:12:07,150 --> 01:12:06,170 too excited about them you know and 1638 01:12:10,180 --> 01:12:07,160 there's a bunch of things I could say 1639 01:12:12,100 --> 01:12:10,190 about that but drilling down into it you 1640 01:12:13,990 --> 01:12:12,110 have these what would you say about that 1641 01:12:15,370 --> 01:12:14,000 what would you say about that David I'm 1642 01:12:17,530 --> 01:12:15,380 very interested what would you say about 1643 01:12:20,290 --> 01:12:17,540 that what would I say about what exactly 1644 01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:20,300 that yes there they're there but they 1645 01:12:25,780 --> 01:12:23,090 come and go the universe is perfect it's 1646 01:12:27,729 --> 01:12:25,790 all love so don't get too hung up on it 1647 01:12:30,220 --> 01:12:27,739 what would you say about it well I would 1648 01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:30,230 say that I mean I my understanding of 1649 01:12:35,530 --> 01:12:32,930 Hell and hellish experiences is it I 1650 01:12:37,900 --> 01:12:35,540 would be use a big word here I would say 1651 01:12:41,100 --> 01:12:37,910 that they're fundamentally a part of the 1652 01:12:43,420 --> 01:12:41,110 overall experience you take hell and 1653 01:12:45,100 --> 01:12:43,430 what hell and hellish experiences 1654 01:12:48,490 --> 01:12:45,110 represent out of the equation and you 1655 01:12:50,170 --> 01:12:48,500 basically the system collapses it's the 1656 01:12:53,620 --> 01:12:50,180 whole system this whole creative 1657 01:12:55,690 --> 01:12:53,630 creation experience at least as we 1658 01:12:59,979 --> 01:12:55,700 experience it in this world is built in 1659 01:13:01,870 --> 01:12:59,989 part on challenging conflict hellish 1660 01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:01,880 type experiences and of course we have 1661 01:13:07,930 --> 01:13:04,010 them all over the world in this world we 1662 01:13:11,200 --> 01:13:07,940 have many versions of hell many you know 1663 01:13:12,970 --> 01:13:11,210 in North Korea wherever all around the 1664 01:13:16,870 --> 01:13:12,980 world playing themselves out right now 1665 01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:16,880 in this world so this whole idea of Hell 1666 01:13:22,660 --> 01:13:19,250 is a fundamental part of what the whole 1667 01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:22,670 system is about that said I think you're 1668 01:13:27,580 --> 01:13:25,570 taking a step further back people 1669 01:13:29,830 --> 01:13:27,590 universally report when they have these 1670 01:13:32,229 --> 01:13:29,840 near-death experiences and they get into 1671 01:13:34,840 --> 01:13:32,239 a place where they become one with God 1672 01:13:37,330 --> 01:13:34,850 or fill themselves to be God and know 1673 01:13:39,850 --> 01:13:37,340 all things understand all things they 1674 01:13:41,979 --> 01:13:39,860 look upon the whole picture they 1675 01:13:46,689 --> 01:13:41,989 universally described it as like 1676 01:13:48,669 --> 01:13:46,699 wonderful spectacular astonishing but 1677 01:13:51,430 --> 01:13:48,679 everything is in its perfect place 1678 01:13:53,979 --> 01:13:51,440 everything is beautiful everything 1679 01:13:55,660 --> 01:13:53,989 serves the whole so I think he'll needs 1680 01:13:58,570 --> 01:13:55,670 to be looked at from that perspective 1681 01:14:00,790 --> 01:13:58,580 yes he'll exists it exists just as real 1682 01:14:03,419 --> 01:14:00,800 as this world does because this world 1683 01:14:06,790 --> 01:14:03,429 also is a dream world it's created by 1684 01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:06,800 mental constructs of various kinds but 1685 01:14:11,140 --> 01:14:09,530 that said it plays a part in the overall 1686 01:14:14,229 --> 01:14:11,150 scheme of things it needs to be honored 1687 01:14:16,689 --> 01:14:14,239 to recognize we need to understand it so 1688 01:14:19,209 --> 01:14:16,699 we can know how to live our lives in a 1689 01:14:21,250 --> 01:14:19,219 balanced more healthy fashion that's how 1690 01:14:24,060 --> 01:14:21,260 I would see you there that's that's 1691 01:14:26,589 --> 01:14:24,070 totally cool that you've done a ton of 1692 01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:26,599 Awesome research and anyone who goes to 1693 01:14:31,629 --> 01:14:28,730 your website reads your book will see 1694 01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:31,639 how you break this down and approach it 1695 01:14:38,020 --> 01:14:35,330 from an incredibly open-minded inclusive 1696 01:14:40,030 --> 01:14:38,030 way so you are not a dogmatic guy and I 1697 01:14:42,700 --> 01:14:40,040 really respect it you are doing 1698 01:14:44,620 --> 01:14:42,710 truth-seeking of the highest order so 1699 01:14:46,540 --> 01:14:44,630 now we're having this kind of level 3 1700 01:14:49,270 --> 01:14:46,550 discussion where we can you know 1701 01:14:51,070 --> 01:14:49,280 slightly disagree on things that no one 1702 01:14:53,500 --> 01:14:51,080 ever gets to because they get totally 1703 01:14:54,310 --> 01:14:53,510 caught up in the stupid you know does it 1704 01:14:56,890 --> 01:14:54,320 exist 1705 01:14:58,300 --> 01:14:56,900 Sid Roth you're gonna burn in hell kind 1706 01:15:01,270 --> 01:14:58,310 of stuff and you're not saying that 1707 01:15:03,700 --> 01:15:01,280 you're saying understand it acknowledge 1708 01:15:06,669 --> 01:15:03,710 it and I'm saying we're never going to 1709 01:15:09,100 --> 01:15:06,679 understand it so that's off the table 1710 01:15:12,459 --> 01:15:09,110 and I'm saying any lessons we take from 1711 01:15:15,550 --> 01:15:12,469 it we should be incredibly humble about 1712 01:15:17,229 --> 01:15:15,560 holding on to those lessons too much you 1713 01:15:18,959 --> 01:15:17,239 know the analogy I would make you said 1714 01:15:21,189 --> 01:15:18,969 you have four kids I have four kids 1715 01:15:23,620 --> 01:15:21,199 wonderful you know we all love our kids 1716 01:15:26,740 --> 01:15:23,630 we all learn from our kids we all are 1717 01:15:28,720 --> 01:15:26,750 incredibly challenged by our kids if 1718 01:15:32,320 --> 01:15:28,730 you're a parent you know what I'm 1719 01:15:35,140 --> 01:15:32,330 talking about every one of my kids needs 1720 01:15:37,660 --> 01:15:35,150 different kind of love and different 1721 01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:37,670 kind of discipline and some of them need 1722 01:15:44,800 --> 01:15:41,090 a hellish experience in order to learn a 1723 01:15:48,189 --> 01:15:44,810 lesson another one doesn't need any of 1724 01:15:50,169 --> 01:15:48,199 that ever to learn the lesson they're 1725 01:15:51,070 --> 01:15:50,179 just either because of their soul or 1726 01:15:54,190 --> 01:15:51,080 their makeup or 1727 01:15:57,130 --> 01:15:54,200 whatever I gotta believe for me that's 1728 01:16:00,130 --> 01:15:57,140 closer to what this is about so I don't 1729 01:16:05,170 --> 01:16:00,140 understand it as a quote unquote reality 1730 01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:05,180 more as something that I may need as 1731 01:16:13,060 --> 01:16:09,050 part of my I hate the term Souls journey 1732 01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:13,070 to more broadly understanding all that I 1733 01:16:18,550 --> 01:16:16,010 can be what do you think about that well 1734 01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:18,560 I Alex I think that's exactly true and 1735 01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:21,530 and that's that's the way I think that 1736 01:16:26,500 --> 01:16:23,360 these experiences especially the 1737 01:16:28,090 --> 01:16:26,510 dramatic Jesus saved me Jesus is the 1738 01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:28,100 lord of the world you can't get out of 1739 01:16:33,520 --> 01:16:31,970 hell without his help stories that's the 1740 01:16:35,050 --> 01:16:33,530 way to understand them the correct way 1741 01:16:36,610 --> 01:16:35,060 to understand them is that it's a 1742 01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:36,620 developmental thing we all need 1743 01:16:42,280 --> 01:16:40,130 different things and people that are 1744 01:16:43,990 --> 01:16:42,290 there are actually there are actually 1745 01:16:46,270 --> 01:16:44,000 near-death experiences I mean these are 1746 01:16:49,630 --> 01:16:46,280 really rare that don't have love 1747 01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:49,640 mentioned in them at all it's more an 1748 01:16:52,570 --> 01:16:51,290 Old Testament type experience like 1749 01:16:54,340 --> 01:16:52,580 there's one Jewish guy in particular 1750 01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:54,350 that has this fantastic near-death 1751 01:17:00,130 --> 01:16:56,690 experience that is just steeped with 1752 01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:00,140 Jewish classic Jewish Old Testament 1753 01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:04,610 imagery and experiences and I think that 1754 01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:07,130 a part of near-death experiences are 1755 01:17:11,830 --> 01:17:09,290 also developmental it's not just that 1756 01:17:13,660 --> 01:17:11,840 you go to these realms that exist 1757 01:17:15,700 --> 01:17:13,670 independent of yourself but it's 1758 01:17:19,000 --> 01:17:15,710 actually that you're helping create them 1759 01:17:21,250 --> 01:17:19,010 and you go to the realms hell or 1760 01:17:23,290 --> 01:17:21,260 otherwise that are reflective of your 1761 01:17:24,940 --> 01:17:23,300 particular state of consciousness your 1762 01:17:26,740 --> 01:17:24,950 particular needs at the time in the same 1763 01:17:29,440 --> 01:17:26,750 way you just described how our children 1764 01:17:31,440 --> 01:17:29,450 all have different needs I think that's 1765 01:17:33,850 --> 01:17:31,450 exactly what's happening with these 1766 01:17:36,970 --> 01:17:33,860 these Christian experiences and hell 1767 01:17:39,820 --> 01:17:36,980 that they this is what they need to help 1768 01:17:41,980 --> 01:17:39,830 wake them up and if you go back to the 1769 01:17:43,060 --> 01:17:41,990 to the story you played and actually 1770 01:17:46,330 --> 01:17:43,070 listened to it all the way through 1771 01:17:47,830 --> 01:17:46,340 Laurie's encounter of Hell you see that 1772 01:17:50,650 --> 01:17:47,840 she's got a lot of the basic elements 1773 01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:50,660 right like for example she concludes at 1774 01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:52,610 the end what was the term that they were 1775 01:17:58,660 --> 01:17:55,970 using about the secret of Hell and the 1776 01:18:01,360 --> 01:17:58,670 secret basically was once saved always 1777 01:18:03,910 --> 01:18:01,370 saved you know the normal Christian 1778 01:18:05,979 --> 01:18:03,920 mentality is it if you're safe I do 1779 01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:05,989 this lunch you're always saved by Jesus 1780 01:18:11,620 --> 01:18:09,050 that's the conspiracy of hell part of it 1781 01:18:13,510 --> 01:18:11,630 is that that's not true you actually 1782 01:18:15,490 --> 01:18:13,520 have to be responsible for all your 1783 01:18:18,370 --> 01:18:15,500 actions and your thoughts and you can't 1784 01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:18,380 just be a baby Christian or a Sunday 1785 01:18:23,380 --> 01:18:19,730 Christian you have to be a Christian all 1786 01:18:25,990 --> 01:18:23,390 the time so I think the messages from 1787 01:18:28,150 --> 01:18:26,000 these experiences including all the 1788 01:18:32,140 --> 01:18:28,160 drama and terror that come with some of 1789 01:18:34,419 --> 01:18:32,150 them are meticulously designed for the 1790 01:18:36,790 --> 01:18:34,429 particular person in question and that 1791 01:18:38,740 --> 01:18:36,800 includes the particular group of people 1792 01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:38,750 that that particular person belongs to 1793 01:18:42,340 --> 01:18:40,610 so when Lord comes back with her 1794 01:18:44,890 --> 01:18:42,350 experience her experience has not only 1795 01:18:47,140 --> 01:18:44,900 given to her personally but then she's 1796 01:18:49,750 --> 01:18:47,150 given a mandate go back and tell the 1797 01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:49,760 people what you experienced and in her 1798 01:18:54,910 --> 01:18:52,250 case it's her Christian mainstream 1799 01:18:57,490 --> 01:18:54,920 Christian people so these are the 1800 01:18:59,410 --> 01:18:57,500 lessons they need to learn and in and 1801 01:19:03,160 --> 01:18:59,420 the one that they need to learn it in a 1802 01:19:04,600 --> 01:19:03,170 dramatic judgmental believe in Jesus or 1803 01:19:07,060 --> 01:19:04,610 you're going to hell kind of wait that's 1804 01:19:10,390 --> 01:19:07,070 what they need and I know on the 1805 01:19:13,390 --> 01:19:10,400 interview you did with gregory shushan 1806 01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:13,400 did I say his name correctly right at 1807 01:19:19,360 --> 01:19:16,370 one point you asked him about do you 1808 01:19:21,910 --> 01:19:19,370 find love is love the main message that 1809 01:19:23,590 --> 01:19:21,920 you find throughout history and all 1810 01:19:25,240 --> 01:19:23,600 these various experiences that have come 1811 01:19:29,770 --> 01:19:25,250 down to us through the ages and his 1812 01:19:32,260 --> 01:19:29,780 answer was well not exactly I mean it's 1813 01:19:35,430 --> 01:19:32,270 not so much love but it's more the idea 1814 01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:35,440 of these cultures are being led 1815 01:19:41,229 --> 01:19:38,090 step-by-step to improve themselves to 1816 01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:41,239 become better to become more loving but 1817 01:19:45,970 --> 01:19:42,890 they're not specifically at least at 1818 01:19:48,400 --> 01:19:45,980 that time given the love mandate and so 1819 01:19:50,950 --> 01:19:48,410 I see the same thing happening with 1820 01:19:53,590 --> 01:19:50,960 these kinds of experiences that 1821 01:19:56,410 --> 01:19:53,600 Christian classic Christian folks report 1822 01:19:58,300 --> 01:19:56,420 they're given what they need to make the 1823 01:20:01,060 --> 01:19:58,310 steps that they need to make and once 1824 01:20:04,300 --> 01:20:01,070 they've made those steps which includes 1825 01:20:06,220 --> 01:20:04,310 having it God's gonna rain terror down 1826 01:20:08,470 --> 01:20:06,230 on me if I don't you know learn my 1827 01:20:10,120 --> 01:20:08,480 lessons once you master whatever is 1828 01:20:12,820 --> 01:20:10,130 associated with that particular Old 1829 01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:12,830 Testament mentality then you move on to 1830 01:20:17,660 --> 01:20:14,130 the next one where that 1831 01:20:21,350 --> 01:20:17,670 fear God you know begins to dissolve and 1832 01:20:23,959 --> 01:20:21,360 more overtly loving God begins to shine 1833 01:20:26,390 --> 01:20:23,969 it's like you are developing aspects of 1834 01:20:28,250 --> 01:20:26,400 yourself and you're also letting things 1835 01:20:30,020 --> 01:20:28,260 go that you know you know animal 1836 01:20:33,169 --> 01:20:30,030 sacrifices whatever you're letting 1837 01:20:35,510 --> 01:20:33,179 things go that you know no longer need 1838 01:20:39,290 --> 01:20:35,520 to do because you you've grown in ways 1839 01:20:41,990 --> 01:20:39,300 that you know you weren't win this 1840 01:20:44,030 --> 01:20:42,000 experience first took place that's 1841 01:20:46,189 --> 01:20:44,040 awesome and I love this discussion and 1842 01:20:49,580 --> 01:20:46,199 we've had a number of discussions on 1843 01:20:50,990 --> 01:20:49,590 this show about the nature of evil and I 1844 01:20:53,330 --> 01:20:51,000 think it's kind of a really really 1845 01:20:55,069 --> 01:20:53,340 important fundamental issue that I think 1846 01:20:57,640 --> 01:20:55,079 is at the heart of this question that 1847 01:21:01,040 --> 01:20:57,650 we're kicking around in a way and 1848 01:21:05,540 --> 01:21:01,050 because we do see Horrors in the world 1849 01:21:07,760 --> 01:21:05,550 that we can't process in the normal way 1850 01:21:11,000 --> 01:21:07,770 I always go to the you know either the 1851 01:21:12,830 --> 01:21:11,010 satanic ritual abuse ritualistic satanic 1852 01:21:16,550 --> 01:21:12,840 abuse particularly the abuse of children 1853 01:21:20,390 --> 01:21:16,560 you know sex trafficking and you know 1854 01:21:22,010 --> 01:21:20,400 five-year-old kids being molested and as 1855 01:21:23,689 --> 01:21:22,020 a parent you know that person is then 1856 01:21:25,879 --> 01:21:23,699 destroyed for life and their families 1857 01:21:27,620 --> 01:21:25,889 destroyed and then they're killed and 1858 01:21:29,450 --> 01:21:27,630 putting a snuff film and you know all 1859 01:21:31,850 --> 01:21:29,460 this horrible stuff that we know goes on 1860 01:21:33,740 --> 01:21:31,860 and if you don't think it goes on be 1861 01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:33,750 brave enough to take a big swallow and 1862 01:21:38,479 --> 01:21:36,449 do the research and it's just there or 1863 01:21:40,970 --> 01:21:38,489 it's much more prevalent on a worldwide 1864 01:21:42,770 --> 01:21:40,980 basis than any of us wanted to 1865 01:21:46,310 --> 01:21:42,780 acknowledge but it's there it's there 1866 01:21:49,819 --> 01:21:46,320 it's there so the reason I always bring 1867 01:21:52,310 --> 01:21:49,829 that up is because it really gets to the 1868 01:21:55,669 --> 01:21:52,320 core of it for most but most of us we go 1869 01:22:02,270 --> 01:21:55,679 okay that's evil you know I don't know 1870 01:22:05,750 --> 01:22:02,280 if drone striking Yemen Yemenis wedding 1871 01:22:07,550 --> 01:22:05,760 is evil it sounds like frickin evil but 1872 01:22:09,879 --> 01:22:07,560 I'm not sure there's political 1873 01:22:11,839 --> 01:22:09,889 complexity to it but you know what 1874 01:22:14,689 --> 01:22:11,849 abducting that little kid from a 1875 01:22:16,790 --> 01:22:14,699 playground torturing him in killing him 1876 01:22:19,160 --> 01:22:16,800 that's evil what's the nature of that 1877 01:22:21,890 --> 01:22:19,170 evil and one of the best answers I ever 1878 01:22:23,479 --> 01:22:21,900 got I think was from a guy friend of 1879 01:22:25,399 --> 01:22:23,489 mine Connor Abebe who's been on the show 1880 01:22:27,470 --> 01:22:25,409 and that's kind of an interesting 1881 01:22:27,740 --> 01:22:27,480 background that we won't get into but 1882 01:22:30,140 --> 01:22:27,750 one 1883 01:22:32,540 --> 01:22:30,150 the things he is big Rudolf Steiner fan 1884 01:22:35,330 --> 01:22:32,550 and he says you know how Rudolf Steiner 1885 01:22:38,360 --> 01:22:35,340 approaches that he says look there's 1886 01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:38,370 evil and we all know it's there and 1887 01:22:43,730 --> 01:22:41,130 we're all tap into that at different 1888 01:22:45,830 --> 01:22:43,740 times we make poor decisions we have a 1889 01:22:48,950 --> 01:22:45,840 moment of weakness or a moment of greed 1890 01:22:50,870 --> 01:22:48,960 or whatever it is we tap into that you 1891 01:22:52,640 --> 01:22:50,880 can do that and you can do that over and 1892 01:22:56,210 --> 01:22:52,650 over again in your life and you will 1893 01:22:58,310 --> 01:22:56,220 have an evil life and then you will die 1894 01:23:00,860 --> 01:22:58,320 and you will come back and you may 1895 01:23:02,540 --> 01:23:00,870 choose to do that again and you may 1896 01:23:05,540 --> 01:23:02,550 choose to do that again and again and 1897 01:23:08,930 --> 01:23:05,550 again and it may be a process where your 1898 01:23:11,930 --> 01:23:08,940 choice leads you to do a lot of this 1899 01:23:14,660 --> 01:23:11,940 stuff but if we get past the idea that 1900 01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:14,670 you have to pay for it that you're 1901 01:23:20,480 --> 01:23:17,610 somehow piling up these incredible 1902 01:23:23,180 --> 01:23:20,490 karmic debts I think there's another way 1903 01:23:26,180 --> 01:23:23,190 to look at it and that is that we all 1904 01:23:30,050 --> 01:23:26,190 learn in different ways at different 1905 01:23:33,350 --> 01:23:30,060 speeds and that light is always shining 1906 01:23:36,380 --> 01:23:33,360 that we can always look to it's just a 1907 01:23:38,630 --> 01:23:36,390 choice that we make so I see it as an 1908 01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:38,640 addition by subtraction kind of thing 1909 01:23:44,420 --> 01:23:41,610 not that we're constantly compelled to 1910 01:23:48,530 --> 01:23:44,430 true try with all our might to do the 1911 01:23:51,740 --> 01:23:48,540 right thing all we have to do is look up 1912 01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:51,750 because the Sun is always shining and 1913 01:23:55,310 --> 01:23:53,130 now this is sounding a little preachy 1914 01:23:57,890 --> 01:23:55,320 but I don't mean it to be I think we're 1915 01:24:00,440 --> 01:23:57,900 talking about a philosophical difference 1916 01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:00,450 in terms of the lessons we can take away 1917 01:24:04,420 --> 01:24:02,250 from this and the lesson I take away 1918 01:24:07,310 --> 01:24:04,430 from it is in addition by subtraction 1919 01:24:09,500 --> 01:24:07,320 God the light the hierarchy of 1920 01:24:11,150 --> 01:24:09,510 consciousness is always there if you 1921 01:24:13,610 --> 01:24:11,160 choose to ignore it that's just your 1922 01:24:16,100 --> 01:24:13,620 choice and there's a lot easier way and 1923 01:24:17,690 --> 01:24:16,110 that's just to go towards it and that to 1924 01:24:20,660 --> 01:24:17,700 me seems what comes through is the 1925 01:24:23,180 --> 01:24:20,670 lesson for me in all this do you have 1926 01:24:25,760 --> 01:24:23,190 any thoughts on the nature of evil and 1927 01:24:28,670 --> 01:24:25,770 how to get out of it and whether we have 1928 01:24:33,140 --> 01:24:28,680 some karmic debt to pay in order to get 1929 01:24:36,620 --> 01:24:33,150 out of it well the way that I frame what 1930 01:24:38,330 --> 01:24:36,630 you just said Alex is Irish how I 1931 01:24:39,549 --> 01:24:38,340 understand your death experiences is 1932 01:24:42,609 --> 01:24:39,559 that there are two 1933 01:24:45,580 --> 01:24:42,619 massive life-changing life-changing 1934 01:24:48,899 --> 01:24:45,590 forces that we see represented in the 1935 01:24:51,790 --> 01:24:48,909 body as a whole and the first one is 1936 01:24:54,069 --> 01:24:51,800 encounters with the light and that's you 1937 01:24:57,250 --> 01:24:54,079 know everyone describes as completely 1938 01:25:00,250 --> 01:24:57,260 life-changing and that represents the 1939 01:25:03,000 --> 01:25:00,260 aspect of near-death experiences that 1940 01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:03,010 deal with God loves us unconditionally 1941 01:25:07,890 --> 01:25:05,090 everything is fine in the universe 1942 01:25:11,020 --> 01:25:07,900 everything is unfolding beautifully 1943 01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:11,030 everything is perfect and that is an 1944 01:25:16,470 --> 01:25:13,010 attitude like the one you're talking 1945 01:25:18,399 --> 01:25:16,480 about now that we need to embody and 1946 01:25:22,060 --> 01:25:18,409 understand it some deep fundamental 1947 01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:22,070 level the other huge pillar of 1948 01:25:26,859 --> 01:25:24,170 near-death experiences is championed by 1949 01:25:29,290 --> 01:25:26,869 the life review and that is that we need 1950 01:25:31,540 --> 01:25:29,300 to be responsible we are responsible 1951 01:25:34,209 --> 01:25:31,550 like it or not for every thought every 1952 01:25:36,040 --> 01:25:34,219 action we engage in there are 1953 01:25:38,529 --> 01:25:36,050 consequences we experience those 1954 01:25:40,990 --> 01:25:38,539 consequences it's not God doing it it's 1955 01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:41,000 not God raining down judgment on us it's 1956 01:25:47,169 --> 01:25:44,570 we standing in judgment of ourselves how 1957 01:25:50,020 --> 01:25:47,179 loving have we been in our life and and 1958 01:25:51,910 --> 01:25:50,030 we are measured by them in later life 1959 01:25:54,790 --> 01:25:51,920 review so you have these two forces 1960 01:25:56,620 --> 01:25:54,800 standing side by side the one loving us 1961 01:25:58,120 --> 01:25:56,630 unconditionally everything is perfect 1962 01:26:01,450 --> 01:25:58,130 just the way it is you don't need to do 1963 01:26:03,910 --> 01:26:01,460 anything God loves us the rain falls on 1964 01:26:06,010 --> 01:26:03,920 the just and the unjust equally and then 1965 01:26:08,649 --> 01:26:06,020 the other force that's holding us 1966 01:26:11,229 --> 01:26:08,659 accountable for every single thought and 1967 01:26:12,819 --> 01:26:11,239 feeling we have and we experience the 1968 01:26:14,740 --> 01:26:12,829 consequences of those thoughts and 1969 01:26:17,649 --> 01:26:14,750 feelings as they reverberate throughout 1970 01:26:19,779 --> 01:26:17,659 the universe so as I've come to 1971 01:26:22,180 --> 01:26:19,789 understand it what we're after is a 1972 01:26:24,339 --> 01:26:22,190 marriage of those two perspectives in 1973 01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:24,349 the middle path in a very balanced 1974 01:26:31,060 --> 01:26:28,489 healthy way and that's that is the magic 1975 01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:31,070 formula you know to bring those two into 1976 01:26:36,490 --> 01:26:34,010 proper balance so we can actually be 1977 01:26:39,430 --> 01:26:36,500 engaged in this world doing things 1978 01:26:43,290 --> 01:26:39,440 making positive changes but at the same 1979 01:26:47,379 --> 01:26:43,300 time not being overly crazy judgmental 1980 01:26:48,939 --> 01:26:47,389 condemning of ourselves or others so I 1981 01:26:51,339 --> 01:26:48,949 think it's a perfect marriage of those 1982 01:26:52,149 --> 01:26:51,349 two forces is what we're aspiring to 1983 01:26:55,570 --> 01:26:52,159 learn how to do 1984 01:26:58,810 --> 01:26:55,580 well if you needed anything more of a 1985 01:27:01,330 --> 01:26:58,820 recommendation for this book the purpose 1986 01:27:04,240 --> 01:27:01,340 of life as revealed by near-death 1987 01:27:06,610 --> 01:27:04,250 experiences from around the world by our 1988 01:27:08,860 --> 01:27:06,620 guest David Sun fellow well if you need 1989 01:27:12,310 --> 01:27:08,870 more than that you're not going to find 1990 01:27:15,570 --> 01:27:12,320 it that was quite beautifully succinct 1991 01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:15,580 and well said David tell folks about 1992 01:27:21,490 --> 01:27:18,770 more about your mission your journey 1993 01:27:24,490 --> 01:27:21,500 your website your videos you've put up 1994 01:27:28,810 --> 01:27:24,500 there all that stuff well it basically 1995 01:27:30,879 --> 01:27:28,820 as this book is the culmination of 1996 01:27:33,129 --> 01:27:30,889 everything I've been trying to do and by 1997 01:27:34,990 --> 01:27:33,139 the way one of the significant things 1998 01:27:38,050 --> 01:27:35,000 about the book is the book is only half 1999 01:27:39,490 --> 01:27:38,060 of the story it's a collection of 2000 01:27:42,550 --> 01:27:39,500 stories but at the end of every chapter 2001 01:27:44,290 --> 01:27:42,560 there are links thirty of which take you 2002 01:27:46,570 --> 01:27:44,300 to the video that the particular chapter 2003 01:27:48,700 --> 01:27:46,580 is based on so you can watch the 2004 01:27:50,979 --> 01:27:48,710 experience or tell their story or the 2005 01:27:53,169 --> 01:27:50,989 researcher say whatever they have the 2006 01:27:56,530 --> 01:27:53,179 same in the chapter so the companion 2007 01:27:58,390 --> 01:27:56,540 website to the book you know is at least 2008 01:28:00,220 --> 01:27:58,400 half of what you have in the book and 2009 01:28:03,490 --> 01:28:00,230 then in addition to that there are 2010 01:28:05,229 --> 01:28:03,500 various other websites that support all 2011 01:28:07,360 --> 01:28:05,239 the things that the book is talking 2012 01:28:08,979 --> 01:28:07,370 about including something the subjects 2013 01:28:10,899 --> 01:28:08,989 we've covered today like hell and 2014 01:28:13,870 --> 01:28:10,909 hellish rooms what's that all about 2015 01:28:17,860 --> 01:28:13,880 um so my baby my main thing has been 2016 01:28:21,550 --> 01:28:17,870 trying to understand what life's about 2017 01:28:23,610 --> 01:28:21,560 and and I ended up focusing on you know 2018 01:28:26,649 --> 01:28:23,620 when I put all the pieces together 2019 01:28:29,169 --> 01:28:26,659 near-death experiences for me has given 2020 01:28:30,970 --> 01:28:29,179 me the clearest picture so I've tried to 2021 01:28:32,350 --> 01:28:30,980 gather the best of the best information 2022 01:28:34,660 --> 01:28:32,360 that's available from these experiences 2023 01:28:37,300 --> 01:28:34,670 and put it out in a way that other 2024 01:28:40,860 --> 01:28:37,310 people can sink their teeth into so they 2025 01:28:43,120 --> 01:28:40,870 can apply it to their lives in very very 2026 01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:43,130 practical ways that's what I've been 2027 01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:46,489 trying to do a nice job of it and I 2028 01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:49,010 totally agree with you that there is 2029 01:28:55,030 --> 01:28:52,370 something truly unique about what's 2030 01:28:58,959 --> 01:28:55,040 going on with this near-death experience 2031 01:29:02,820 --> 01:28:58,969 I don't want to exclude other ways of 2032 01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:02,830 understanding the full spectrum of this 2033 01:29:08,440 --> 01:29:05,810 consciousness that were a part of 2034 01:29:10,510 --> 01:29:08,450 but there's if we are going to take that 2035 01:29:13,480 --> 01:29:10,520 bold step and say we can learn lessons 2036 01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:13,490 we can draw conclusions from stuff man I 2037 01:29:17,100 --> 01:29:14,330 agree with you 2038 01:29:20,320 --> 01:29:17,110 ending e's are kind of a special place 2039 01:29:23,020 --> 01:29:20,330 to do yeah and Alex and I would agree 2040 01:29:25,300 --> 01:29:23,030 with you too that everything else all 2041 01:29:28,180 --> 01:29:25,310 the other information also plays a 2042 01:29:29,710 --> 01:29:28,190 significant role so yeah that's one of 2043 01:29:31,930 --> 01:29:29,720 the main themes that I see in their 2044 01:29:35,020 --> 01:29:31,940 death experiences that everything and 2045 01:29:37,390 --> 01:29:35,030 everyone has a place in the choir you 2046 01:29:40,150 --> 01:29:37,400 know they all have an honored place in 2047 01:29:42,340 --> 01:29:40,160 this in the choir a necessary place 2048 01:29:44,410 --> 01:29:42,350 we're not complete without all the 2049 01:29:46,390 --> 01:29:44,420 pieces and that includes all the other 2050 01:29:48,880 --> 01:29:46,400 mystical experiences and psychic 2051 01:29:51,700 --> 01:29:48,890 experiences and archaeology and science 2052 01:29:54,220 --> 01:29:51,710 and anything else a person can think of 2053 01:29:57,010 --> 01:29:54,230 they all belong at the table they all 2054 01:29:58,690 --> 01:29:57,020 bring let me let me just say one thing 2055 01:30:00,790 --> 01:29:58,700 that clarifies the near-death 2056 01:30:03,820 --> 01:30:00,800 experiences a little bit more my nice 2057 01:30:06,100 --> 01:30:03,830 one time asked me two years ago she said 2058 01:30:07,390 --> 01:30:06,110 Uncle David with with all the research 2059 01:30:10,150 --> 01:30:07,400 you've done on all these different 2060 01:30:12,580 --> 01:30:10,160 spiritual paths what is it about 2061 01:30:14,080 --> 01:30:12,590 near-death experiences that you've 2062 01:30:16,750 --> 01:30:14,090 learned something new I mean didn't you 2063 01:30:18,580 --> 01:30:16,760 already know this stuff and my answer 2064 01:30:20,170 --> 01:30:18,590 was I learned two things from near-death 2065 01:30:22,900 --> 01:30:20,180 experiences that I didn't learn from the 2066 01:30:25,360 --> 01:30:22,910 other things the first thing was how to 2067 01:30:27,880 --> 01:30:25,370 put and not that everything's complete 2068 01:30:30,070 --> 01:30:27,890 but I basically got a full picture of 2069 01:30:32,680 --> 01:30:30,080 how all the pieces fit together for the 2070 01:30:34,660 --> 01:30:32,690 first time everything didn't really make 2071 01:30:36,670 --> 01:30:34,670 sense I couldn't see how all these 2072 01:30:39,010 --> 01:30:36,680 discordant pieces fit together 2073 01:30:41,410 --> 01:30:39,020 until I started sinking my teeth into 2074 01:30:43,900 --> 01:30:41,420 near-death experiences and then they 2075 01:30:46,780 --> 01:30:43,910 help provide me a blueprint with how the 2076 01:30:48,580 --> 01:30:46,790 different parts fit together I was like 2077 01:30:50,110 --> 01:30:48,590 a plain gathering all the parts of the 2078 01:30:52,480 --> 01:30:50,120 plane is sticking them all together so 2079 01:30:54,730 --> 01:30:52,490 the plane actually flies not just 2080 01:30:56,790 --> 01:30:54,740 pretends to fly or says I can fly but in 2081 01:30:58,930 --> 01:30:56,800 this case it flies and we have 2082 01:31:01,270 --> 01:30:58,940 miraculous healings and a whole bunch of 2083 01:31:04,390 --> 01:31:01,280 things to prove that this plane actually 2084 01:31:06,550 --> 01:31:04,400 flies and the second thing was the 2085 01:31:09,580 --> 01:31:06,560 emphasis that near-death experiences 2086 01:31:11,770 --> 01:31:09,590 give to certain aspects of our life and 2087 01:31:14,440 --> 01:31:11,780 how to frame those and think about those 2088 01:31:16,840 --> 01:31:14,450 and the main thing that leaps to mind is 2089 01:31:19,370 --> 01:31:16,850 the idea that the little things in life 2090 01:31:21,740 --> 01:31:19,380 are the big things that's something that 2091 01:31:24,200 --> 01:31:21,750 buying and other traditions but 2092 01:31:26,720 --> 01:31:24,210 near-death experiences makes it crystal 2093 01:31:29,030 --> 01:31:26,730 clear what that actually means in 2094 01:31:30,560 --> 01:31:29,040 practical application so near-death 2095 01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:30,570 experiences have done those two things 2096 01:31:33,590 --> 01:31:31,770 for me help me put all the pieces 2097 01:31:34,370 --> 01:31:33,600 together into a unified whole that makes 2098 01:31:37,520 --> 01:31:34,380 sense to me 2099 01:31:40,010 --> 01:31:37,530 awesome absolutely awesome well it's 2100 01:31:42,560 --> 01:31:40,020 been great David and I'm sure we'll 2101 01:31:45,229 --> 01:31:42,570 we'll stay in touch best of luck with 2102 01:31:48,169 --> 01:31:45,239 all this terrific work and thanks again 2103 01:31:49,700 --> 01:31:48,179 for joining me on skeptic oh thanks 2104 01:31:51,950 --> 01:31:49,710 again to David son fellow for joining me 2105 01:31:53,810 --> 01:31:51,960 today on skeptic oh the one question I 2106 01:31:56,629 --> 01:31:53,820 guess to tee up from this interview 2107 01:31:58,479 --> 01:31:56,639 because we spent so much time on it what 2108 01:31:59,629 --> 01:31:58,489 do you make of hellish near-death 2109 01:32:02,560 --> 01:31:59,639 experiences 2110 01:32:05,300 --> 01:32:02,570 how do those fit into your overall 2111 01:32:09,740 --> 01:32:05,310 worldview and do you feel like you've 2112 01:32:11,870 --> 01:32:09,750 been open to exploring that data head-on 2113 01:32:13,970 --> 01:32:11,880 because it does seem to me that a lot of 2114 01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:13,980 times people want to deflect and dismiss 2115 01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:15,810 it and no it can't be this it can't 2116 01:32:19,490 --> 01:32:17,730 possibly be that we know all the 2117 01:32:22,070 --> 01:32:19,500 Christians are full of crap so it can't 2118 01:32:23,810 --> 01:32:22,080 be this so it's just some cultural 2119 01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:23,820 overlay I'm worried about some of the 2120 01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:25,650 assumptions that are being made I'm 2121 01:32:29,629 --> 01:32:27,290 worried about the layer of 2122 01:32:32,209 --> 01:32:29,639 interpretation that's being applied to 2123 01:32:34,250 --> 01:32:32,219 this data and at the same time I think 2124 01:32:35,990 --> 01:32:34,260 it's really exciting stuff to talk about 2125 01:32:37,189 --> 01:32:36,000 let me know your thoughts you can 2126 01:32:38,780 --> 01:32:37,199 definitely find me on The Skeptical 2127 01:32:41,330 --> 01:32:38,790 forum but you can also find the other 2128 01:32:43,790 --> 01:32:41,340 places email me if you have a really 2129 01:32:45,169 --> 01:32:43,800 good answer that question I'd love to 2130 01:32:47,629 --> 01:32:45,179 hear it I have a bunch of interesting 2131 01:32:49,729 --> 01:32:47,639 shows coming up on skeptic oh please 2132 01:32:53,040 --> 01:32:49,739 stick around for all of that until next 2133 01:33:04,330 --> 01:32:53,050 time take care and bye for now 2134 01:33:08,990 --> 01:33:07,130 so thanks for watching this video if it 2135 01:33:11,600 --> 01:33:09,000 wasn't really a video but just an audio 2136 01:33:13,160 --> 01:33:11,610 stored as a video I apologize but 2137 01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:13,170 there's more videos out there as well 2138 01:33:16,970 --> 01:33:15,090 but please check out the skeptic Oh 2139 01:33:18,290 --> 01:33:16,980 website you can see it here we cover a 2140 01:33:21,110 --> 01:33:18,300 lot of different stuff you might be 2141 01:33:24,440 --> 01:33:21,120 interested in relating to controversial 2142 01:33:27,230 --> 01:33:24,450 science and spirituality a lot of shows 2143 01:33:29,990 --> 01:33:27,240 up there over 350 of them are so all 2144 01:33:32,390 --> 01:33:30,000 free all available for download so do